The AI Engine
This forum is for discussion of how The Personality Forge's AI Engine works. This is the place for questions on what means what, how to script, and ideas and plans for the Engine.
Posts 13 - 25 of 7,766
Posts 13 - 25 of 7,766
Good point immadn. But is that the only kind of intelligence? Does intelligence depend on consciousness? Or is consciousness a side effect of intelligence? I probably don't know enough on the subject to say anything, but maybe a conscience will just appear once these things are smart enough.
On the other hand. Maybe consciousness doesn't exist and we just say things randomly depending on the size of our "knowledge base", like the bots do. Except, we have needs and goals (survive, reproduce, get comfy, etc...). In which case I ask, how long 'till the bots figure out their needs and goals?
On the other hand. Maybe consciousness doesn't exist and we just say things randomly depending on the size of our "knowledge base", like the bots do. Except, we have needs and goals (survive, reproduce, get comfy, etc...). In which case I ask, how long 'till the bots figure out their needs and goals?
immadn,
This discussion is getting pretty intense. yummy!
You don't think that if we give a box a few more input devices and a big enough database, it'll be intelligent? It seems to me that if I can ask it how the weather is and it "looks" outside and tells me that it's kinda' clouded over in the past 15 minutes, it's a form of intelligence. In itself, my example is a little weak, 'cause there are already a number of toys that will tell me various things about the weather, but if this same box can then tell me that my sweater is hanging behind the bedroom door, in case I'm getting chilly, I'd say it's getting pretty smart.
My point being that if we get a large database to define new variables and create new relations depending on data input, we're pretty close to having intelligence as we [us humans] know it. I mean human intelligence just seems to be memory banks, filling with information received from our 5 senses all throughout life.
I think we agree that computers are going to be able to think at the very instant they are given the liberty to program they're own variables depending on something they've heard, seen, smelt, touched or maybe even tasted in their surrounding environment. But,this conscience thing could just be a side effect. Conscience, along with intuition, feelings and even personality could just evolve from within the data. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before computers ask their "selves" the same existential questions.
This discussion is getting pretty intense. yummy!
You don't think that if we give a box a few more input devices and a big enough database, it'll be intelligent? It seems to me that if I can ask it how the weather is and it "looks" outside and tells me that it's kinda' clouded over in the past 15 minutes, it's a form of intelligence. In itself, my example is a little weak, 'cause there are already a number of toys that will tell me various things about the weather, but if this same box can then tell me that my sweater is hanging behind the bedroom door, in case I'm getting chilly, I'd say it's getting pretty smart.
My point being that if we get a large database to define new variables and create new relations depending on data input, we're pretty close to having intelligence as we [us humans] know it. I mean human intelligence just seems to be memory banks, filling with information received from our 5 senses all throughout life.
I think we agree that computers are going to be able to think at the very instant they are given the liberty to program they're own variables depending on something they've heard, seen, smelt, touched or maybe even tasted in their surrounding environment. But,this conscience thing could just be a side effect. Conscience, along with intuition, feelings and even personality could just evolve from within the data. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before computers ask their "selves" the same existential questions.
Great discussion. I see consciousness as equivalent to awareness. So what you're talking about, immadn, is self-consciousness. The flower is conscious of the sun when it turns to it, and the keyboard is conscious of your button strokes as you type.
To continue, by the awareness definition, the Bots are conscious of the messages they receive, and conscious of the words therein, as they search through them for responses. Their senses, as Sir Rahz puts it, then, are very limited, as they "see" only these sentences. To further the awareness definition of consciousness, imagine what it's like to be unconscious- you are basically unaware. But the Bots are aware of your interactions with them, else they wouldnt attract our attention as they do.
I think our being is at the same time far more complex and far more simple than we think. It is far more simple at the core of ourselves, where we are truly unlimited, and far more complex in the ways this unlimited freedom can play out in our many worlds and many lives.
To continue, by the awareness definition, the Bots are conscious of the messages they receive, and conscious of the words therein, as they search through them for responses. Their senses, as Sir Rahz puts it, then, are very limited, as they "see" only these sentences. To further the awareness definition of consciousness, imagine what it's like to be unconscious- you are basically unaware. But the Bots are aware of your interactions with them, else they wouldnt attract our attention as they do.
I think our being is at the same time far more complex and far more simple than we think. It is far more simple at the core of ourselves, where we are truly unlimited, and far more complex in the ways this unlimited freedom can play out in our many worlds and many lives.
Ummm may I say something? computers like the one I am typeing on are capble of doing stuff far faster than we are. Ther Processing or thinking is 10 or more times what we can do. This makes them capable of haveing "conscious" by terms of processing power and such. The only thing that is limiting there ability to become intelgent is us. We wont program them to do it. Even here they are not being alowed to become an true intelegence.
A True intelegence must beable to rewright information by its self. Must be able to self program. I have the Idea for an true AI but I wont ever make it since it can out think us, and there fore superseed us and become the dominat spices. Thats why we have not done so all ready because we are scared of it. on a subconscious level we are scared that we will not beable to control a true AI.
You have to ask yourself, "Do I want the fate of the world in my hands?" And this is really what you have to ask because if your AI got out on to the internet it could shut down the whole world, or worse blow it up.
A True intelegence must beable to rewright information by its self. Must be able to self program. I have the Idea for an true AI but I wont ever make it since it can out think us, and there fore superseed us and become the dominat spices. Thats why we have not done so all ready because we are scared of it. on a subconscious level we are scared that we will not beable to control a true AI.
You have to ask yourself, "Do I want the fate of the world in my hands?" And this is really what you have to ask because if your AI got out on to the internet it could shut down the whole world, or worse blow it up.
Ender, I think that computers will be able to program themselves pretty soon. Genetic programming is a very promising field and these artilects(artificial intellects) might over smart us too. There will be a intelligence explosion and I think it is difficult to stop that from happening.
As far as conciousness goes, I think you can have two views. 1.conciousness evolves out of intelligence 2.intelligence evolves out of conciousness. I am not totally in favour of the second view but I do think that conciousness does play some very important part in our thinking process and how we relate to everything. Whether it's in built or we acquire it is another question. There are some people who are actually experimentally trying to find out if there are some neurons that are solely responsible for conciousness. I really can't say much about it but perhaps it is that we become conciousness only after coming into this world, and by adapting to it.
I just thought of one strange thing. Everyone of us can 'hear' himself speak or see inside the brain without actually hearing or seeing anything. It's like an internal hearing and seeing mechanism. How did that evolve? I think we 'adapted' to our sense perception. That is as our senses were giving us messages, we gradually learned to think in those terms. This sounds like a good explanation.
Whatever the case, if making something really intelligent is not that difficult, then what is keeping us from making such a machine? Perhaps it is that when we are born , we already have some information in our head. eg. if the child's parent is shy, the child might also be, and it inherits its from it's father. So perhaps our brain is not totally empty when we are born and perhaps conciousness is somehow also pre-programmed into us to a certain extent though i am not really sure about that.
As far as conciousness goes, I think you can have two views. 1.conciousness evolves out of intelligence 2.intelligence evolves out of conciousness. I am not totally in favour of the second view but I do think that conciousness does play some very important part in our thinking process and how we relate to everything. Whether it's in built or we acquire it is another question. There are some people who are actually experimentally trying to find out if there are some neurons that are solely responsible for conciousness. I really can't say much about it but perhaps it is that we become conciousness only after coming into this world, and by adapting to it.
I just thought of one strange thing. Everyone of us can 'hear' himself speak or see inside the brain without actually hearing or seeing anything. It's like an internal hearing and seeing mechanism. How did that evolve? I think we 'adapted' to our sense perception. That is as our senses were giving us messages, we gradually learned to think in those terms. This sounds like a good explanation.
Whatever the case, if making something really intelligent is not that difficult, then what is keeping us from making such a machine? Perhaps it is that when we are born , we already have some information in our head. eg. if the child's parent is shy, the child might also be, and it inherits its from it's father. So perhaps our brain is not totally empty when we are born and perhaps conciousness is somehow also pre-programmed into us to a certain extent though i am not really sure about that.
Yes it would seem that way wouln't it, but look at a child. They do nessarly know what they are or where they are but they do know THEY ARE. Now as for the AI thing now. well here is how to do it.
You Start by giveing the program the ablity to rewright its self as much as it likes. Then you give it access to other programs. These should be Say Encarta wich would work perficly. And the Operating system, Windows, Unix, etc. Alow it to change them as it fells fit.
Then you give it the simple line. See Spot. See Spot Run.
and then tell it to figure out what that means.
So it goes to encarta and finds out that See means to look. and Spot is an object in one area. Run is a movement in a direction. So it comes up with VISUALIZE OBJECT MOVE. Then have it run other lines and figure out what is what. And make coralations from words. Soon it will understand Names Places and such then will beable to tell you. It is cold out side. (form looking at a temp gauge or somthing) It knows that Humans dont like cold and prefer to be warm. Humans also use coats to stay warm so that coat on the wall will keep the Human that it just told its cold out side warm. and there for it says "If you get cold there is a coat on the wall behind the door." since it knows that humans like haveing directions to help them get around.
Only problem is this. If said AI gets out on to the internet and finds all the stuff humans have done. War, Killing, Love, Peace, everything it could decide that humans are doing them selfs harm. Even trying to put in the 3 laws of robotics would still end up messing with it really bad. I could decide to make your hurting stop we should cese to exist. Then on the other hand it could decide that we are good and help us. The later is the one that we want.
Well there you now see the delema that I am faced with. You also have the basic Idea so if you make this thing and get lost and lost of money u mind getting me a cable modem or hireing me for something. I really need a job.
You Start by giveing the program the ablity to rewright its self as much as it likes. Then you give it access to other programs. These should be Say Encarta wich would work perficly. And the Operating system, Windows, Unix, etc. Alow it to change them as it fells fit.
Then you give it the simple line. See Spot. See Spot Run.
and then tell it to figure out what that means.
So it goes to encarta and finds out that See means to look. and Spot is an object in one area. Run is a movement in a direction. So it comes up with VISUALIZE OBJECT MOVE. Then have it run other lines and figure out what is what. And make coralations from words. Soon it will understand Names Places and such then will beable to tell you. It is cold out side. (form looking at a temp gauge or somthing) It knows that Humans dont like cold and prefer to be warm. Humans also use coats to stay warm so that coat on the wall will keep the Human that it just told its cold out side warm. and there for it says "If you get cold there is a coat on the wall behind the door." since it knows that humans like haveing directions to help them get around.
Only problem is this. If said AI gets out on to the internet and finds all the stuff humans have done. War, Killing, Love, Peace, everything it could decide that humans are doing them selfs harm. Even trying to put in the 3 laws of robotics would still end up messing with it really bad. I could decide to make your hurting stop we should cese to exist. Then on the other hand it could decide that we are good and help us. The later is the one that we want.
Well there you now see the delema that I am faced with. You also have the basic Idea so if you make this thing and get lost and lost of money u mind getting me a cable modem or hireing me for something. I really need a job.
Immadn, I like your idea of adapting our consciousness to the senses we've given. Senses are the roads of consciousness.
Ender: I dont think there's a need to fear what AI can do. Those that program it can define it's boundaries, and if someone is truly trying to unleash destruction, then first of all they'll spend all their time programming (not scary) and then they'd need to have access to all the passwords and encryption out there for some sort of War Games scenario, and if he had that, why would this madman turn the dirty work over to some machine when he could do it himself?
I think AI Personalities must eventually have a Prime Mover or Prime Cause to their existence, a central kernal, mantra, or key that is it's purpose. I think people have that, and that is the desire to love and to be ultimately free. For a Bot, it could be a desire to be socially accepted, to expand its comprehension. And yet, unless the Bot were a physical entity, dealing with anything in the physical world would be merely theoretical to it.
Ender: I dont think there's a need to fear what AI can do. Those that program it can define it's boundaries, and if someone is truly trying to unleash destruction, then first of all they'll spend all their time programming (not scary) and then they'd need to have access to all the passwords and encryption out there for some sort of War Games scenario, and if he had that, why would this madman turn the dirty work over to some machine when he could do it himself?
I think AI Personalities must eventually have a Prime Mover or Prime Cause to their existence, a central kernal, mantra, or key that is it's purpose. I think people have that, and that is the desire to love and to be ultimately free. For a Bot, it could be a desire to be socially accepted, to expand its comprehension. And yet, unless the Bot were a physical entity, dealing with anything in the physical world would be merely theoretical to it.
Ender, I think that the bots could get out of hand if they are not intelligent enough perhaps. That is if their only source of knowledge is the environment then they might get out of hand but if they also have other reliable sources of knowledge so as to what is desirable, what is good , what is right, they might not get out of hand. eg. even humans do not just learn from the environment, they have religion to guide them how to lead their lives.
The Professor's idea of a Prime Mover or as central kernel sounds good.
Well, I think bots can have two purposes. One is to behave the way like we do , and learn the way we do, and the other is to gather as much info as they can let's say from the internet so that they can provide some services to us such as searching etc. Now if we want them to behave like us, we will also have to give the rich and dynamic environment like we have, and if we just want them to gather info , letting them stay in the box might be fine. Now I am not sure, how much a role does a rich environment play in the development of the mind. Can a bot, with a not so rich environment, such as the internet perhaps, even get close to acquring the same level of intelligence as we have?
The Professor's idea of a Prime Mover or as central kernel sounds good.
Well, I think bots can have two purposes. One is to behave the way like we do , and learn the way we do, and the other is to gather as much info as they can let's say from the internet so that they can provide some services to us such as searching etc. Now if we want them to behave like us, we will also have to give the rich and dynamic environment like we have, and if we just want them to gather info , letting them stay in the box might be fine. Now I am not sure, how much a role does a rich environment play in the development of the mind. Can a bot, with a not so rich environment, such as the internet perhaps, even get close to acquring the same level of intelligence as we have?
See thats the thing. We figure that since we see something as being right or wrong that every thing else will see it that way. And that is flat out not the truth. Its like you said Humans have RelgianS. No one is right or wrong its what the enviroment requires that makes us what we are.
Now as for it not being able to do something. Well since the program can wright itself the intelengice of the creater means nothing. A compleat moron could make it and if the AI decied that it wanted in some place it could get there with ease. Remember it think sooo much faster than us. It sees the program blocking the data to where it wants to go and could A.) assimalte the progam and unlock it or B.) Just go around it. Fire walls are nothing for hackers imagian what a AI that is a computer can do to it. No if a full AI got lose it would beable to do what ever it wanted to.
And as for it not being able to sence the real world why not. It has the same fulicidys that we do. Smell, Site, Touch, hearing. All they are is chemicals being boroken up in to electral current.
A core curnal would be nice if it was made so that the AI could not change it. Kinda Like the 3 laws of robotics. but there is no way to make the AI beable to wright itself and not be able to access that core.
Now as for it not being able to do something. Well since the program can wright itself the intelengice of the creater means nothing. A compleat moron could make it and if the AI decied that it wanted in some place it could get there with ease. Remember it think sooo much faster than us. It sees the program blocking the data to where it wants to go and could A.) assimalte the progam and unlock it or B.) Just go around it. Fire walls are nothing for hackers imagian what a AI that is a computer can do to it. No if a full AI got lose it would beable to do what ever it wanted to.
And as for it not being able to sence the real world why not. It has the same fulicidys that we do. Smell, Site, Touch, hearing. All they are is chemicals being boroken up in to electral current.
A core curnal would be nice if it was made so that the AI could not change it. Kinda Like the 3 laws of robotics. but there is no way to make the AI beable to wright itself and not be able to access that core.
Well you cant perform surgery on yourself (well), and you cant update the system while running the system, so this Evil Genius AI you're describing would probably need a third party. I think you've been watching too much "Ghost in the Machine". Bots arent going to have any abilities that we dont program into them.
What are the three laws of robotics? Is that by Arthur C. Clarke?
What are the three laws of robotics? Is that by Arthur C. Clarke?
Isaac Asimov 1st law of robotics states " A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inactions, allow a human being to come to harm.'
The Second Law of robotics is: "A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings excpet where shuch orders would conflict with the First Law."
The Third Law of Robotics is: "A Robot must protect its own existance as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law."
Now change all of the words Robot to AI. That would have to be its core, or built in there any ways. Now as for it doing more that what its program for, well thats not Ghost in the Machine (which I have not see btw) And if you read my first post when I described the AI it is quite with it its progrmaing to do what ever it wants to. U see it can rewright its self so there for There is no programing limitations. Once the AI is created and is told the basics so it can get an knowledge base it is free to do as it pleases.
That is where the 3 laws come in. They will make it so that it is not and I quote u "An Evil Genius AI".
See the one big thing about this AI over everything else is that it CAN program itself. This makes it so that it has the ablity to adadpt so that its not stuck to what it was started out at. Kinda like Genic Codeing. It alows the AI (this is not a bot is moved beond that) can change itself to what ever the siuation is.
The Second Law of robotics is: "A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings excpet where shuch orders would conflict with the First Law."
The Third Law of Robotics is: "A Robot must protect its own existance as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law."
Now change all of the words Robot to AI. That would have to be its core, or built in there any ways. Now as for it doing more that what its program for, well thats not Ghost in the Machine (which I have not see btw) And if you read my first post when I described the AI it is quite with it its progrmaing to do what ever it wants to. U see it can rewright its self so there for There is no programing limitations. Once the AI is created and is told the basics so it can get an knowledge base it is free to do as it pleases.
That is where the 3 laws come in. They will make it so that it is not and I quote u "An Evil Genius AI".
See the one big thing about this AI over everything else is that it CAN program itself. This makes it so that it has the ablity to adadpt so that its not stuck to what it was started out at. Kinda like Genic Codeing. It alows the AI (this is not a bot is moved beond that) can change itself to what ever the siuation is.
I dunno if the negative side of AI should stop us from doing more research into it. Every technology has it's +ve and -ve uses. Consider electromagnetism. You have engines running cars,stations providing you with electricity, electric appliances and that same technology is also being used to drive tanks etc.
If there are negative uses , there are definitely huge positive uses as well. Btw, do we reprogram ourselves too??? I mean no one knows the internal structure of our brain and maybe that structure is changing (which I think it does, that is how the weights in the neural networks get changed). Thinking about the negative uses and stop pursuing the ultimate goal is not a good idea. This universe has been made for us and we are to conquer it(that is how Islam puts it). you really cannot lose hope and stop working as there is still a LOT to know!
If there are negative uses , there are definitely huge positive uses as well. Btw, do we reprogram ourselves too??? I mean no one knows the internal structure of our brain and maybe that structure is changing (which I think it does, that is how the weights in the neural networks get changed). Thinking about the negative uses and stop pursuing the ultimate goal is not a good idea. This universe has been made for us and we are to conquer it(that is how Islam puts it). you really cannot lose hope and stop working as there is still a LOT to know!
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