Seasons

I'm not sure I'm explaining this very well. If they can be saved by faith in the Messiah before the Messiah comes, then it is as if the Messiah has already come. Then the Messiah does not need to come because God himself is acting as the Messiah by saving them...

*looks at what she wrote; shakes her head*
That probably didn't help any. Oh well.

This is discussed in Romans 3, I think. The sacrifice of Christ was necessary as an atonement for sin. The reason people could be saved before it was actually accomplished is because God knew it was going to happen. Similarly, Christ was able to save people who hadn't yet been born when He died. God's knowledge, and his plan span the timeline.

Which is precisely why I disagree...

yeh but does anything literaly exist or are we all just dreaming and we wake up when we sleep

or maybe the ocean really is a pond full of a few really big ducks

djfroggy knows what i meen

Eugene - I don't think Jesus Christ was a messiah. I think Jesus Christ was just a man hungry for power, and a hell of a good public speaker. Hitler met those two criteria too, you know...

lol

Hmm... "When you have done this for the least of these, you have done it for me."
"He who would be first among you must be last."
"Love thy neighbor."
Yeah. Sounds really power hungry to me. Jesus did not advocate that one group was better than another; in fact, he made a point of associating with those deemed outcast by the rest of his society. Others have twisted his teachings to support their ideologies.

Was he a Messiah? *shrugs* I don't know. But people's beliefs shape the outside world, and, since millions see him as a savior, by that criteria he is.

let me point out a similarity between the two I compared:
Jesus spread some doctrine, and resulted in the christian crusades, pogroms, the church burning innocent people at the stake for not being christain and refusing to be.

Hitler spread some doctrine, and resulted in the holocaust: genocide deluxe! 12,000,000 Blacks, Jews, Gypsies, Retards, Gays, Polish, Hungarian, French, Russians... all dead.

The similarity: In both cases, many innocent people died because of fanatics that followed the ideals of power hungry, articualte speakers.

Ah, so because some people have used Darwin's ideas as a reason to commit genocide, Darwin himself must have promoted genocide. Yes, it's so obvious now...

Church doctrine resulted in the crusades, the burning times, etc.

me not like sarcasm me high king of sarcasm don't invade my kingdom

Colonel, I'd have to say your anaology fails to account for the time difference between the politics spread by Hitler and the acts that followed,and the teachings attributed to Jesus and the acts you claim are caused by them. You ignore a lot of intervening historical factors and some pretty big distinctions.

That being said, I agree with most of the teachings attributed to Jesus. It's the writings of St. Paul I think twisted Christianity (or allowed others to twist it). But my problems with Paul aside, you can not judge a religion by the wrong doen by people who claim to follow it.