Doghead's Cosmic Bar

I think animals are rather dependant on human that's why they would rather live under someone's roof then lingering in the street. But I do think that they have free will.

Actually, animals are quite independant or at least most of them were before humans domesticated them. It's natural human instinct to believe that other species can not live without human intervention. How people can believe such a thing when humans are the ones causing the extinction of a vast majority of species I don't know.

ok dj what i am desperately trying to open in your mind, is that the comparisson between what you say is free will to humans and just plain insticnt is the exact same damn thing. so either humans have no free will and we are all just running on instinct gas, or everything has free will.

ok take onyx's cat example, if you were beat up in school a lot, is it instinct to become a hermit or mean or take it out on people, or to grow past that and become a nice person despite how shitty people have treated you? it sounds like free will to me either way, because no matter how YOU respond or react either choice is only up to YOU and no one forces you to make either decision.

just like the cat getting beat up, you are just stepping into its' shoes allowing yourself to see throw its' point of view. the cat itself chooses whether to find shelter with a human household (like my eddie) and become the most loving creature it can be, or choose to be an alley cat that is hardened by its' OWN choices.

the next thing you will tell me is that only humans have feelings too right? and that humans are the only creatures capible of communication...

Read "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" Habit 1: Be Proactive, not Reactive

It describes the difference better than I can

isn't making your last statement being reactive and not proactive... oh to the irony.

i am just asking you to prove it to me that other creatures are not capable of free will. when you can prove it to me in a convincing manner as to why you beleive this then i can drop it, i have given you examples all you have given me are excuses to back up your beliefs...show me some proof as to why other creatures are not capable of free will, open my mind.

Yes my last statement was reactive.
The proactive response would have been "I choose not to elaborate further" or something like that

that still would have been reactive dj, not resonding at all would have been proactive...

Can't we all just grab some drinks and party?

and ruin this great intellectual conversation while in a drunken state of clarity?

intellectual schmectual

hey pro!!!!

i just want to let you know i have not forgotten about the cookies, down here in dem dar houston we've been worryin' our selvs to half plum craziness over this silly little hurricane thingy me-bob in the gulf...and floodin' and stuffs.....( you know how they always get the most slack jawed yokelish on the news voice...) anyways, i will ship out the cookies this tuesday! tackle huggggsss the pro!