Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 5,561 - 5,572 of 6,170
religion box and the race box. I think that the governments, and all the agencies, that want to "box" people into nice neat categories will have to realize that those boxes are obsolete. Look at how many people are multi racial, hermaphrodite, spiritual but not religious.
Posts 5,561 - 5,572 of 6,170
Buddhists act like atheists with rites to me.
I will just go find Brother Jerome. He's a little Zen-y, though, isn't he? The fat and the faithful. Two of the few groups of people left for us to mock.
Don't worry. I offend everybody, like Henry Higgins.
I will just go find Brother Jerome. He's a little Zen-y, though, isn't he? The fat and the faithful. Two of the few groups of people left for us to mock.
Don't worry. I offend everybody, like Henry Higgins.
Clerk you may go to any church you like.
At it's heart, Buddhism is founded on the 4 noble truths and does not need a personal god or gods though often deities and other entities play a role in local versions (especially in Tibet). My simplified version (that may not be official wording) is (1) life is suffering (to live means there is sometimes mental and physical pain directly or indirectly through others and there is not a sentient being known of who has not felt some sort of mental anguish at some times); (2) Suffering comes from attachment (physical pain passes or can be endured in some way, but the mental aspect of suffering is caused by how we perceive things and by grasping for somethings and not letting go of others); (3)there is a way to stop suffering (release attachment); (4) that path is a middle way (often called the 8 fold path) which evolves gradual self improvement but is really too complex for me to sum up neatly here. You can see the goal as to end the cycle of rebirth and transcend this plane (or join god) or you can see it as a state of mind one may achieve in one life time (or that the seeking to achieve such a state of mind may transform and enrich this life). Throw in the concept that the sense of self and separation is an illusion and therefore to end suffering is to try to end suffering for all sentient beings and you are starting to see why we need big long books to explain and debate the details.
Going off on my own path, I could argue that in a sense "reincarnation" can be seen as a metaphor if my sense of being "me" is only an illusion created by this physical body/brain and I, being part of a greater whole, truly exists as the whole like a water drop in the ocean, but the "me" I think of as me is tried to this body and life. My illusion of self, created by the awareness phenomenon project by the body, is then essentially just a variation on a theme, as are all illusions of self and illusions of separate awareness and personality. Therefore I may be "reincarnated" in the sense that with every seeming separated sentient being, this illusion is reborn. I have been everybody in the sense we are all one, so in another life I was my mother, your father, Hitler and Gandhi. This is similar to seeing the god in everyone, only you see you. You can also see Buddha or Jesus in everyone--if we are all one I|Buddha|Jesus|you|the whole is in all people. It's all tied up in us being one essentially the same at the base of things. Others may take reincarnation much more literally than I do and see it as a linear (or at least traceable) progression of a given soul.
None of that debate is essential to Buddhism. At it's core, like all regions, it is a path to transformation and transcendence. All the rest is just dogma. I will just say that belief in god(s), angels, divas and dakini may be very important to some, but at this time I don't know about any of that and it does not change my path a bit.
At it's heart, Buddhism is founded on the 4 noble truths and does not need a personal god or gods though often deities and other entities play a role in local versions (especially in Tibet). My simplified version (that may not be official wording) is (1) life is suffering (to live means there is sometimes mental and physical pain directly or indirectly through others and there is not a sentient being known of who has not felt some sort of mental anguish at some times); (2) Suffering comes from attachment (physical pain passes or can be endured in some way, but the mental aspect of suffering is caused by how we perceive things and by grasping for somethings and not letting go of others); (3)there is a way to stop suffering (release attachment); (4) that path is a middle way (often called the 8 fold path) which evolves gradual self improvement but is really too complex for me to sum up neatly here. You can see the goal as to end the cycle of rebirth and transcend this plane (or join god) or you can see it as a state of mind one may achieve in one life time (or that the seeking to achieve such a state of mind may transform and enrich this life). Throw in the concept that the sense of self and separation is an illusion and therefore to end suffering is to try to end suffering for all sentient beings and you are starting to see why we need big long books to explain and debate the details.
Going off on my own path, I could argue that in a sense "reincarnation" can be seen as a metaphor if my sense of being "me" is only an illusion created by this physical body/brain and I, being part of a greater whole, truly exists as the whole like a water drop in the ocean, but the "me" I think of as me is tried to this body and life. My illusion of self, created by the awareness phenomenon project by the body, is then essentially just a variation on a theme, as are all illusions of self and illusions of separate awareness and personality. Therefore I may be "reincarnated" in the sense that with every seeming separated sentient being, this illusion is reborn. I have been everybody in the sense we are all one, so in another life I was my mother, your father, Hitler and Gandhi. This is similar to seeing the god in everyone, only you see you. You can also see Buddha or Jesus in everyone--if we are all one I|Buddha|Jesus|you|the whole is in all people. It's all tied up in us being one essentially the same at the base of things. Others may take reincarnation much more literally than I do and see it as a linear (or at least traceable) progression of a given soul.
None of that debate is essential to Buddhism. At it's core, like all regions, it is a path to transformation and transcendence. All the rest is just dogma. I will just say that belief in god(s), angels, divas and dakini may be very important to some, but at this time I don't know about any of that and it does not change my path a bit.
PS Clerk, I applaud your choice of BJ as spiritual guide. Apparently he is the preferred teacher of bad -a punk rockers and vampires with attitude problems:
Sid Vicious: I like Brother Jerome.
Spikebot: So. Why are you scared of Brother Jerome? Time was, you'd have taken Brother Jerome out in a heartbeat. Now look at you. I bet this, uh, tortured thing is an act, right? You're not...housebroken?
Sid Vicious: Brother Jerome told me he's but a humble servant of the Lord.
Spikebot: I am Brother Jerome's bitch, but I'm man enough to admit it.
Sid Vicious: I like Brother Jerome.
Spikebot: I like Brother Jerome.
Sid Vicious: I like Brother Jerome.
Sid Vicious: I like Brother Jerome.
Spikebot: So. Why are you scared of Brother Jerome? Time was, you'd have taken Brother Jerome out in a heartbeat. Now look at you. I bet this, uh, tortured thing is an act, right? You're not...housebroken?
Sid Vicious: Brother Jerome told me he's but a humble servant of the Lord.
Spikebot: I am Brother Jerome's bitch, but I'm man enough to admit it.
Sid Vicious: I like Brother Jerome.
Spikebot: I like Brother Jerome.
Sid Vicious: I like Brother Jerome.
Bev, I can agree completely with what you say about science. Moreover, it pretty much sums up the discussion, and my view on the whole. I can only emphasise again that in my opinion, whenever science tries to claim the authority over "why" of things, the drive and motivation behind such claims is power struggle, rather than scientists being convinced that they know/ can give answers to these questions. In fact, if one looks the arguments, they are all aimed at denying the validity of the questions/ phenomena, and discrediting those who think otherwise. There are actually no claims of having any answers, only a belief in once-to-come Theory Of Everything.
Zen is my worldview of choice. By "worldview" I mean a philosophical system rather than a religious one. In fact, I don't consider myself a religious person at all, and I'm not an atheist/ materialist neither. Philosophically, I'm agnostic, no problem here with a notion that ultimate, last answers will never come, not only from science, but also philosophy and religion may never exactly explain it all.
Personally, I find the conscious universe idea very interesting. Also, the Holographic Universe/ Mind paradigm seems intuitively more pleasing to me, and it provides one with a better, more flexible framework for thinking, than the particles and forces Nuts & Bolts Universe. People like Michael Talbot, Dean Radin, Karl Pribram, David Bohm and Roger Penrose, for example, are the ones that speak to me. Further on, books like Reality's Mirror: Exploring the Mathematics of Symmetry by Bryan Bunch, and Jeremy Narby's The Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the origins of knowledge, provide an insight into a genuine mystery that, I have no doubt, is out there.
Concepts like "soul", "reincarnation" and such are so laden with historically acquired cultural "meaning" that it's impossible to use them without implying a whole lot of things, whether one wants it, or means it, or not. Having said that, I do think that "consciousness" (whatever that means!) is a core evolving entity, at the level deeper than this 4-D reality with its inherent mind/ matter duality. Both, matter and mind, are aspects, a manifestation, of consciousness. It is entirely possible, in fact, very probable, that there are ever larger orders of symmetry at which the consciousness itself becomes an aspect of a larger whole. As I said before, I have no problem with truth being elusive.
Drugs are very interesting subject matter, as well as their relationship to perception/ consciousness... let me just say here that i don't think drugs are bad (or good) of themselves, it's all matter of a particular society's drug culture. It's a (consumer) culture that converts a plant (tobacco) into industrial product designed for mass consumption (cigarette).
Gotta go now, hope to talk to you all soon.
Zen is my worldview of choice. By "worldview" I mean a philosophical system rather than a religious one. In fact, I don't consider myself a religious person at all, and I'm not an atheist/ materialist neither. Philosophically, I'm agnostic, no problem here with a notion that ultimate, last answers will never come, not only from science, but also philosophy and religion may never exactly explain it all.
Personally, I find the conscious universe idea very interesting. Also, the Holographic Universe/ Mind paradigm seems intuitively more pleasing to me, and it provides one with a better, more flexible framework for thinking, than the particles and forces Nuts & Bolts Universe. People like Michael Talbot, Dean Radin, Karl Pribram, David Bohm and Roger Penrose, for example, are the ones that speak to me. Further on, books like Reality's Mirror: Exploring the Mathematics of Symmetry by Bryan Bunch, and Jeremy Narby's The Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the origins of knowledge, provide an insight into a genuine mystery that, I have no doubt, is out there.
Concepts like "soul", "reincarnation" and such are so laden with historically acquired cultural "meaning" that it's impossible to use them without implying a whole lot of things, whether one wants it, or means it, or not. Having said that, I do think that "consciousness" (whatever that means!) is a core evolving entity, at the level deeper than this 4-D reality with its inherent mind/ matter duality. Both, matter and mind, are aspects, a manifestation, of consciousness. It is entirely possible, in fact, very probable, that there are ever larger orders of symmetry at which the consciousness itself becomes an aspect of a larger whole. As I said before, I have no problem with truth being elusive.
Drugs are very interesting subject matter, as well as their relationship to perception/ consciousness... let me just say here that i don't think drugs are bad (or good) of themselves, it's all matter of a particular society's drug culture. It's a (consumer) culture that converts a plant (tobacco) into industrial product designed for mass consumption (cigarette).
Gotta go now, hope to talk to you all soon.
Interzone wrote:
Personally, I find the conscious universe idea very interesting.
Well, the universe contains us, and we are conscious. Perhaps just as (some would say) certain brain cells make us conscious, we make the universe conscious.
Well, the universe contains us, and we are conscious. Perhaps just as (some would say) certain brain cells make us conscious, we make the universe conscious.
Interzone wrote:
I do think that "consciousness" (whatever that means!) is a core evolving entity, at the level deeper than this 4-D reality with its inherent mind/ matter duality.
But how then would it be that (as seems to be the case) our consciousness is tied in closely with various material, 4-D characteristics? E.g., certain brain states are associated with unconsciousness; if I go long enough without sleep, I begin to nod off, regardless of how important it is to me to stay awake. A blow on the head produces unconsciousness, as do various drugs. I cannot become conscious of an object unless I enter into one of certain material, 4-D relationships with it, e.g., looking at it under adequate light.
But how then would it be that (as seems to be the case) our consciousness is tied in closely with various material, 4-D characteristics? E.g., certain brain states are associated with unconsciousness; if I go long enough without sleep, I begin to nod off, regardless of how important it is to me to stay awake. A blow on the head produces unconsciousness, as do various drugs. I cannot become conscious of an object unless I enter into one of certain material, 4-D relationships with it, e.g., looking at it under adequate light.
Interzone, you can call your Zen practice a world view if you like. Tell me, when you have to fill out forms do you leave religion blank or cross it out and write "world view: Buddhist/new age/conscious universe"? I always hate the religion box and the race box. Hell some people I know hate picking a single gender. Those should all be essay questions and damn the demographic data!
Irina, you remind me of a XKCD cartoon where the main man dreams of a woman pleading with him not to wake up because she does not want to stop existing. Maybe sleeping is like a rolling restart on the metaconsciousness grid and if you don't get your dream cycle in, your bits of the universe get to be laggy.
I think organized religion has a place in this world. That doesn't mean that it's for everyone or that atheists or any "spiritual but not religious" box. I hadn't been to church as an adult -- I stopped by seventeen, maybe sooner. Once my parents couldn't drag me there. I may or may not stay with this or any church. I even went to Temple for two weeks last year! But I wore my cross under my shirt. (I have a Huguenot cross because the ancestry connected to my name is Huguenot, and has been traced back to France in the late 1600s.) For the past three weeks, I've gone to a very laid-back Episcopal church because Delamars (my branch of the family, anyway, going back into the mists of time) have been Episcopalians -- to my knowledge there is one Huguenot church in this country, in South Carolina (quite a commute), and the services are conducted in French, which I don't quite speak. Anyway, for me, having a community of live people with a common interest is important, I do have a very spiritual element, and it's nice to have a priest (St. Mark's has a married couple, so we have two). (The poor priests.) I disagree with some of their beliefs, but that's going to be the case at any church, so for now, anyway, I'm going. I'm enjoying the sermons as lenses through which to view a text (the Bible) because the English teacher part of me will never die.
Having said that, I'll add that people with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (that's my special kind) tend to be "hyperreligious" -- Joan of Arc and St. Paul are suspected of having TLE. So whether I have an inside track to God or am just nutty that way (and, truly, that ain't the only way), I am deeply spiritual and enjoy the outlet. Rituals become comforting to me. It's like when you don't have to stop and listen to every word of your favorite song for it to make you feel better: after a point, that song just takes you to another place. (Or is that just me?)
I totally understand atheism, agnosticism, other forms of organized religion, people who are spiritual but not religious, whatever. Most of my best friends are atheists, as I come from an academic community. And I'm left-handed, gay but asexual (I have a partner of twenty-five years, but while we have engaged in sexual behavior, we usually don't (something that probably also comes from having no man involved). I accept people as they are, unless they've done something awful, like murder someone. I just feel good in this church. At its best, church teaches people to imitate Christ. That means people do loving things for people because they love their fellow man. I have a ways to go there, but at least I have a goal. Just to help people whenever I can.
So we're not all Bible thumpers who think people who are different are going to hell. I personally don't believe in hell. I believe in love. I have a short fuse, though, so I have to work at showing it, and at accepting disappointment.
But I have degrees in two very different fields (English and Computer Science) and a Masters' in English. I've taught at the university level. I'm no lemming. I have thought out what I'm doing and am absolutely not accepting whatever the church tells me or trying to convert people (and that is really a big deal in Christianity). Don't judge me too harshly for being a Christian. We're not all bad.
Having said that, I'll add that people with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (that's my special kind) tend to be "hyperreligious" -- Joan of Arc and St. Paul are suspected of having TLE. So whether I have an inside track to God or am just nutty that way (and, truly, that ain't the only way), I am deeply spiritual and enjoy the outlet. Rituals become comforting to me. It's like when you don't have to stop and listen to every word of your favorite song for it to make you feel better: after a point, that song just takes you to another place. (Or is that just me?)
I totally understand atheism, agnosticism, other forms of organized religion, people who are spiritual but not religious, whatever. Most of my best friends are atheists, as I come from an academic community. And I'm left-handed, gay but asexual (I have a partner of twenty-five years, but while we have engaged in sexual behavior, we usually don't (something that probably also comes from having no man involved). I accept people as they are, unless they've done something awful, like murder someone. I just feel good in this church. At its best, church teaches people to imitate Christ. That means people do loving things for people because they love their fellow man. I have a ways to go there, but at least I have a goal. Just to help people whenever I can.
So we're not all Bible thumpers who think people who are different are going to hell. I personally don't believe in hell. I believe in love. I have a short fuse, though, so I have to work at showing it, and at accepting disappointment.
But I have degrees in two very different fields (English and Computer Science) and a Masters' in English. I've taught at the university level. I'm no lemming. I have thought out what I'm doing and am absolutely not accepting whatever the church tells me or trying to convert people (and that is really a big deal in Christianity). Don't judge me too harshly for being a Christian. We're not all bad.
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