Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 387 - 398 of 6,170
Posts 387 - 398 of 6,170
oh btw for your info there is a new bot creator place. I think it is kinda cool. It is based on the *gasp* alice bot but it is way easier to use. The url is http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora and no it is not my website.
Mr. Crab,
The punchline of the story was, "Go and do the same." See, the scribe asked the question because he wanted to know who he had to love and who he didn't. A typical Jew at that time would have included the Samaritans at or near the top of the list of non-neighbors, and vice versa. Yet in answer to the question, Jesus tells a story about a Samaritan selflessly serving a Jew, then says "Go and do the same." Here is another example of this teaching:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -- Matthew 5:43-48
To answer your second objection, let me begin with a quote from OnyxFlame.
"We should act in a moral manner not because God tells us to or because we think it'll get us to heaven, but because it's the right thing to do."
This statement implies that there exists an objective standard of right and wrong, which is above everyone, even God. Most people seem to agree that certain things are right and other things are wrong, and that's just the way it is. But where does such a standard come from? The answer is that in fact it comes from God. He is the source of the standard. His perfect holiness is the model for what we ought to be like.
OnyxFlame,
You've noticed the seeming paradox between God being merciful and loving, yet just. This is in fact the question at the heart of the Gospel: How can a God of justice forgive sin? Moving on to the answer to this question...
Butterfly Dream,
If you were drowning and someone threw you a life preserver, would you say that they were forcing the gift on you and threatening you with death if you didn't take it? That's not a perfect analogy, but it's a start.
We all were condemned to Hell for our sin. That was the condition of the human race without God's plan of redemption. Yes, He was the one who condemned us -- and He was right to do so, because we all were vile, wicked sinners. Yet He did not want us all to perish. He wanted to forgive. So, He devised a plan by which we could be saved. You complain that in the course of this plan an innocent person suffered. In fact, an innocent person did suffer, and it was a scandal of divine proportions. The person who suffered was God Himself. Was this the only way? I have wrestled with that question before, and I haven't a clue. But it is the way that God in His infinite wisdom chose to take.
Concerning King James, you are absolutely right. The man had no business having a Bible translation named after him. Although he did fund the project.
The punchline of the story was, "Go and do the same." See, the scribe asked the question because he wanted to know who he had to love and who he didn't. A typical Jew at that time would have included the Samaritans at or near the top of the list of non-neighbors, and vice versa. Yet in answer to the question, Jesus tells a story about a Samaritan selflessly serving a Jew, then says "Go and do the same." Here is another example of this teaching:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -- Matthew 5:43-48
To answer your second objection, let me begin with a quote from OnyxFlame.
"We should act in a moral manner not because God tells us to or because we think it'll get us to heaven, but because it's the right thing to do."
This statement implies that there exists an objective standard of right and wrong, which is above everyone, even God. Most people seem to agree that certain things are right and other things are wrong, and that's just the way it is. But where does such a standard come from? The answer is that in fact it comes from God. He is the source of the standard. His perfect holiness is the model for what we ought to be like.
OnyxFlame,
You've noticed the seeming paradox between God being merciful and loving, yet just. This is in fact the question at the heart of the Gospel: How can a God of justice forgive sin? Moving on to the answer to this question...
Butterfly Dream,
If you were drowning and someone threw you a life preserver, would you say that they were forcing the gift on you and threatening you with death if you didn't take it? That's not a perfect analogy, but it's a start.
We all were condemned to Hell for our sin. That was the condition of the human race without God's plan of redemption. Yes, He was the one who condemned us -- and He was right to do so, because we all were vile, wicked sinners. Yet He did not want us all to perish. He wanted to forgive. So, He devised a plan by which we could be saved. You complain that in the course of this plan an innocent person suffered. In fact, an innocent person did suffer, and it was a scandal of divine proportions. The person who suffered was God Himself. Was this the only way? I have wrestled with that question before, and I haven't a clue. But it is the way that God in His infinite wisdom chose to take.
Concerning King James, you are absolutely right. The man had no business having a Bible translation named after him. Although he did fund the project.
Yes, JB, but it sold considerably less than his second, more popular book: "So you're going to hell..."
And who's to say that God isn't just an embodiment of moral principles that were inherent in reality before he existed? (Which leads to another thought: How can God create himself? Perhaps reality is founded on paradox and there's no point in trying to understand it.)
As for God "forcing" us to love him...he isn't, he's just giving us an ultimatum. If he REALLY wanted to force us to love him, we wouldn't even know we COULDN'T love him.
See, there's just so much there we are never going to agree on. You're presenting religious doctrine as fact, and premising your other beliefs on this one that human beings in and of themselves are vile and incapable of worthiness or even self-improvement without God. There's simply no way I can accept that. And while I fully respect your right to believe what you will, I personally would characterize this perspective as both needless and destructive. It includes denigrating (not merely humbling) the self and placing all one's hopes in a thing one cannot know exists. Far more rewarding to me anyway is what we say in my personal church, which is that human beings are born neutral and become what they make of themselves.
My real point you stated just so, Eugene: there is an objective standard of right and wrong to which even God, if God existed, would be bound, and by which we (and He) may be judged. This objective standard does not "come from" anywhere, it is the natural result of certain facts and the emergence of consciousness capable of making choices.
My real point you stated just so, Eugene: there is an objective standard of right and wrong to which even God, if God existed, would be bound, and by which we (and He) may be judged. This objective standard does not "come from" anywhere, it is the natural result of certain facts and the emergence of consciousness capable of making choices.
Mr. Crab,
Truth is not relative. Maybe what I believe is wrong, but it is not neither right nor wrong.
So you say that we are what we make of ourselves. How much power over ourselves do you really think we have? Can you make yourself never tell a lie, never have a thought that is lustful, or covetous, or selfish, or otherwise evil?
OnyxFlame,
God didn't create Himself; He has always existed. That's not much easier to understand, but there it is.
Truth is not relative. Maybe what I believe is wrong, but it is not neither right nor wrong.
So you say that we are what we make of ourselves. How much power over ourselves do you really think we have? Can you make yourself never tell a lie, never have a thought that is lustful, or covetous, or selfish, or otherwise evil?
OnyxFlame,
God didn't create Himself; He has always existed. That's not much easier to understand, but there it is.
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