Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 2,398 - 2,409 of 6,170
Posts 2,398 - 2,409 of 6,170
Charles -- Okay, resurrection. Yes. That is definitely a Hebrew idea. But between the time of death and the time of resurrection, is the consciousness nonexistent? Here's what Jesus said on the subject:
"On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, asking, 'Teacher, Moses said, "If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother." Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. Las of all, the woman died. In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.' But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. FOr in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.'" -- Matthew 22:23-32
"On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, asking, 'Teacher, Moses said, "If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother." Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. Las of all, the woman died. In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.' But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. FOr in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.'" -- Matthew 22:23-32
we are not carried through space on the back of a computer programmer (unless turtles are good with computers)
Hang on, Eugene. As I understand it, Christian canon says that only those who come after Jesus and accept him as lord and savior are 'saved.' Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob clearly were before the time of Christ, so if they are still 'living' (as I think you're implying), they would necessarily be in hell. Yet Christ uses them as appellations of God. If part of hell is a complete separation from God, this is a contradiction. Please clarify.
It says by faith abrham etc was saved. Does it matter whether it was before or after no. It's just a point made to distract from the purpose of the conversation. To make a long story short you can't prove or disprove what science says and you can't prove or disprove what religion says. As far as I am concerned I would rather belong to a religion that actually works by changing you into a better person. One in whom the principles when applied actually do work and the only save aa or na that does that is christianity. I have tried several different religions including wicca and none of them helped. In fact it seemed like more work than nessary when all I have to do is pray to (talk to) my Heavenly Father. I never got answers by casting spells or trying yoga etc. Only when I put the principles of the bible into practise did I begin to see a change in myself. The biggest reason AA and other 12 step groups work because it is based on principles found in the bible.
I see it as relevant. If they were saved before, then whether or not Christ actually came doesn't seem to matter. If they were saved after, then they spent the intervening time in hell.
And in my experience, the spiritual discipline that 'helps' is the one that you will practice.
And in my experience, the spiritual discipline that 'helps' is the one that you will practice.
Eugene - in Jewish tradition, before the messiah comes, there will be a terrible war with fire and smoke and blood and many many casualties... a war that involves a mountain splitting in half! Who the hell would look forward to being slaughtered in a war??? "milchemet Gog uMagog" is hebrew for the war of Gog and Magog, supposedly the two world "superpowers" at the time of the end of the world which is 6000 years after the creation of the world. the Jewish year is now 5765.
Anyway, I'll be dead by then, so cheers!
Anyway, I'll be dead by then, so cheers!
Ladydyke--I am glad that you have found a religion that works for you, but please do not assume that my religion does not work for me. To use your cirteria, I have found the the principles of Buddhism when applied really do work for me.
I am not perfect, but being a Buddhist has made me a much kinder, stronger and more spiritual person. I am glad for your personal transformation--and I am glad for what I am and my own practice. I am not saying all truths are equal--but I am saying I grew up Christian, studied the Bible (the whole Bible, not just the pretty parts), prayed to God and applied the Bible's principles--and for me, the application of these teachings did not lead to the transformation you describe. My path took me to other religious teachings, but I have great respect for Christians.
I also used to be a neo-pagan, though I never followed a specifically Wiccan path. I think what you get out of religion relfects what you put into it. If you think Wicca is all about casting spells and getting what you want, I don't think you get much out of it. That would be like a Christian praying for a new car or praying for more money and then saying that Christianity doesn't work when they don't get what they want. I admit I too, eventually took my spirituality to a different place, but being Buddhist doesn't mean I disrespect sincere Wiccans.
As for Yoga, if you did it as an physical exercise, you became flexible. It's not magic. If you did it for meditation, you may have found some peace. If you did it in sincere worship and offering to your god, you may have found more in it--you can do yoga as a prayer to God as a Christian too. Or for health. Or not at all.
:-). I like yoga, but it is actually more Hindu than Buddhist (don't tell the Tibetans). It adds joy to my life and aids me in my practice, but it is not for everyone.
I would guess that there are sincere Taoist, Hindus, Muslims, Santeria, pagans, and religious people of all sorts who would tell you how their religion transforms their lives. Again, all truth may not be equal, but it would seem strange to me to generalize one person's experience to all of humanity by declaring any one religion as the only possible path. I personally think all paths lead to the same place, eventually, but I can't prove that either. In the meantime, we need tollerance--because otherwise something beautiful becomes something violent and ugly.
I am not perfect, but being a Buddhist has made me a much kinder, stronger and more spiritual person. I am glad for your personal transformation--and I am glad for what I am and my own practice. I am not saying all truths are equal--but I am saying I grew up Christian, studied the Bible (the whole Bible, not just the pretty parts), prayed to God and applied the Bible's principles--and for me, the application of these teachings did not lead to the transformation you describe. My path took me to other religious teachings, but I have great respect for Christians.
I also used to be a neo-pagan, though I never followed a specifically Wiccan path. I think what you get out of religion relfects what you put into it. If you think Wicca is all about casting spells and getting what you want, I don't think you get much out of it. That would be like a Christian praying for a new car or praying for more money and then saying that Christianity doesn't work when they don't get what they want. I admit I too, eventually took my spirituality to a different place, but being Buddhist doesn't mean I disrespect sincere Wiccans.
As for Yoga, if you did it as an physical exercise, you became flexible. It's not magic. If you did it for meditation, you may have found some peace. If you did it in sincere worship and offering to your god, you may have found more in it--you can do yoga as a prayer to God as a Christian too. Or for health. Or not at all.
:-). I like yoga, but it is actually more Hindu than Buddhist (don't tell the Tibetans). It adds joy to my life and aids me in my practice, but it is not for everyone.
I would guess that there are sincere Taoist, Hindus, Muslims, Santeria, pagans, and religious people of all sorts who would tell you how their religion transforms their lives. Again, all truth may not be equal, but it would seem strange to me to generalize one person's experience to all of humanity by declaring any one religion as the only possible path. I personally think all paths lead to the same place, eventually, but I can't prove that either. In the meantime, we need tollerance--because otherwise something beautiful becomes something violent and ugly.
Ulrike -- They were saved before, but they couldn't have been if the Messiah were not going to come.
colonel720 -- He came once, and will come a second time. O.T. prophecies don't distinguish well between the two.
colonel720 -- He came once, and will come a second time. O.T. prophecies don't distinguish well between the two.
Right, but the Messiah could always be going to come, in which case anyone who believed that would be saved. So the actual coming can be infinitely delayed, yet believers would still be saved. *shrugs*
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