Seasons

Oh, so instead of 'turtles all the way down', it's 'computer programmers all the way up'!

yeh but the turtle is swimming

But is the computer programmer swimming???

Charles -- Okay, resurrection. Yes. That is definitely a Hebrew idea. But between the time of death and the time of resurrection, is the consciousness nonexistent? Here's what Jesus said on the subject:

"On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, asking, 'Teacher, Moses said, "If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother." Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. Las of all, the woman died. In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.' But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. FOr in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.'" -- Matthew 22:23-32

we are not carried through space on the back of a computer programmer (unless turtles are good with computers)

Hang on, Eugene. As I understand it, Christian canon says that only those who come after Jesus and accept him as lord and savior are 'saved.' Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob clearly were before the time of Christ, so if they are still 'living' (as I think you're implying), they would necessarily be in hell. Yet Christ uses them as appellations of God. If part of hell is a complete separation from God, this is a contradiction. Please clarify.

revscrj-

Excellent point about the blind having better hearing, etc.

In a nutshell: People before Christ were saved by faith, looking forward to the coming Messiah.

So... were they saved before or after the Messiah came?

It says by faith abrham etc was saved. Does it matter whether it was before or after no. It's just a point made to distract from the purpose of the conversation. To make a long story short you can't prove or disprove what science says and you can't prove or disprove what religion says. As far as I am concerned I would rather belong to a religion that actually works by changing you into a better person. One in whom the principles when applied actually do work and the only save aa or na that does that is christianity. I have tried several different religions including wicca and none of them helped. In fact it seemed like more work than nessary when all I have to do is pray to (talk to) my Heavenly Father. I never got answers by casting spells or trying yoga etc. Only when I put the principles of the bible into practise did I begin to see a change in myself. The biggest reason AA and other 12 step groups work because it is based on principles found in the bible.

I see it as relevant. If they were saved before, then whether or not Christ actually came doesn't seem to matter. If they were saved after, then they spent the intervening time in hell.

And in my experience, the spiritual discipline that 'helps' is the one that you will practice.