Doghead's Cosmic Bar
This is a science fiction character forum. Doghead's Cosmic Bar is an intergalactic bar run by your favorite bartender, Doghead. Stop in, have a drink, and get your talk on!
Posts 8,591 - 8,602 of 13,738
The difference being that you can harvest fruit, grains, or leaves without damaging the entire plant. It grows back.
Well, it could theoretically, but in practice that's not how any grain or beans are produced - the whole plant is combine-harvested, and the good bits threshed out of them. And noone harvests a few leaves from a lettuce and leaves the plant to carry on growing.
I had a vegan friend at university who decided one term to become a fruitarian (yes, it's a real word, even if it's a really dumb idea!) and eat only fruits that were harvested without killing the plants or harming the seeds. I've never seen anyone get ill so quickly - by half term just about the only dietary deficiency he wasn't suffering from was scurvy, and he ended up in hospital. No matter how much avocado and asparagus you eat, you can't get enough protein or fat in your diet to stay healthy.
So eat meat if you want to - I won't say you shouldn't. But if you're squeamish about raw meat and blood, I'd say that's a phobia that you ought to try to work on. Because you won't get the best meat, or the best out of your meat, if you don't spend a little time considering what it actually is and how it became that way.
And if you get the chance, choose meat that's not industrially raised and processed, and stuffed full of antibiotics and hormonal growth promoters - it may cost a little more, but it's a whole lot healthier as well as tastier.
Yes. Potatoes are not made from wheat, rye, or barley. Any vegetable or fruit is okay, as are non-processed meats (most lunch meat has modified food starch, which can be made from anything; thankfully, legislation is now in place where companies will be required to label WHAT kind of starch it is)
But bread? Pasta? Pastry? Either I make it myself or spend a heckuva lot on specialty items.
And one essential to make gluten-free bread is xanthan gum, which comes from a micro-organism. I've often wondered what vegans who are gluten-intolerant would do about that... (there's also guar gum, but it can have odd digestive effects)
Thanks Bev, but I find it amusing that most people think my condition is so awful. To be honest, it's very liberating. Why? Because it's impossible for me to fall back on the SAD diet. It's impossible for me to follow "standard" food conventions. Since those are mostly unhealthy, I find this an advantage.
The only things I really miss are shredded wheat and triscuits. For everything else, I've found an equivalent that I like just as well (or cut it out without missing it at all). I used to miss Grapenuts, until I discovered kasha (roasted buckwheat, which is NOT related to wheat).
Posts 8,591 - 8,602 of 13,738
I think of plants as sentient creatures too. The difference being that you can harvest fruit, grains, or leaves without damaging the entire plant. It grows back. Whereas you can't just chop off a piece of a cow and leave the rest to wander around (okay, technically, you could. but you wouldn't.)
And the thing is... I know all about industrial ranching. It disgusts me. But me becoming a vegetarian won't stop them from doing it. If I don't buy the meat, someone else will. It's already dead, cooking and eating it won't make it any deader. It's not healthy NOT to eat meat, and I was raised in a VERY meat-eating household and would probably miss it more than most people.
Me becoming a vegetarian would not have any positive effect other than perhaps making some of you happier people.
And the thing is... I know all about industrial ranching. It disgusts me. But me becoming a vegetarian won't stop them from doing it. If I don't buy the meat, someone else will. It's already dead, cooking and eating it won't make it any deader. It's not healthy NOT to eat meat, and I was raised in a VERY meat-eating household and would probably miss it more than most people.
Me becoming a vegetarian would not have any positive effect other than perhaps making some of you happier people.
Oh and also, I'm of two minds about the whole "the animal gave its life for you" thing. It didn't do so willingly. Imagine if someone slaughtered you and ate you. Would it make you feel any better that they recognized that you gave your life to feed them? They'd probably much rather have kept their life if they had any choice in the matter. Personally, if it was me being harvested for food, I'd want to tell them just where they could shove their gratefulness.
Well, if everyone robbed one another, and you did as well, would that make your act more moral? One concept of morality (an ammoral sot like myself speaking of this is laughable by the way) is that if all were to follow these actions, the world would be a better place. Thus, if you truly believe that the meat industry should not be supported, you should refrain from supporting it, regardless of the actual effects of your action. This logic should be clear to anyone living in a democracy, where just these arguments are used to encourage voting.
Of course, the argument that you raise about personal pain is a strong way to ameliorate the moral justice argument. Essentially, egoism is it's own moral code, and if you follow it, then you can judge by what is most convenient to yourself. I do this in the case of meat as well. It is cheaper (not just in terms of money) to buy cheap animal food stuff than to seek a well-balanced alternative; I find it more pleasant as well; free-range alternatives, while morally soothing, are way too expensive for me to consider.
Of course, the argument that you raise about personal pain is a strong way to ameliorate the moral justice argument. Essentially, egoism is it's own moral code, and if you follow it, then you can judge by what is most convenient to yourself. I do this in the case of meat as well. It is cheaper (not just in terms of money) to buy cheap animal food stuff than to seek a well-balanced alternative; I find it more pleasant as well; free-range alternatives, while morally soothing, are way too expensive for me to consider.
Well, it could theoretically, but in practice that's not how any grain or beans are produced - the whole plant is combine-harvested, and the good bits threshed out of them. And noone harvests a few leaves from a lettuce and leaves the plant to carry on growing.
I had a vegan friend at university who decided one term to become a fruitarian (yes, it's a real word, even if it's a really dumb idea!) and eat only fruits that were harvested without killing the plants or harming the seeds. I've never seen anyone get ill so quickly - by half term just about the only dietary deficiency he wasn't suffering from was scurvy, and he ended up in hospital. No matter how much avocado and asparagus you eat, you can't get enough protein or fat in your diet to stay healthy.
So eat meat if you want to - I won't say you shouldn't. But if you're squeamish about raw meat and blood, I'd say that's a phobia that you ought to try to work on. Because you won't get the best meat, or the best out of your meat, if you don't spend a little time considering what it actually is and how it became that way.
And if you get the chance, choose meat that's not industrially raised and processed, and stuffed full of antibiotics and hormonal growth promoters - it may cost a little more, but it's a whole lot healthier as well as tastier.
Urlike "Btw, it is impossible for me NOT to pay close attention to what I eat. I'm gluten-intolerant. I cannot have products made with wheat, rye, or barley. This cuts out 90% of the "food" in most stores/restaurants/etc. "
Im sorry to hear that, you are the second person i know who suffers from such an issue. So i know what its like... I beleive you can eat potato right?
Im sorry to hear that, you are the second person i know who suffers from such an issue. So i know what its like... I beleive you can eat potato right?
Yes. Potatoes are not made from wheat, rye, or barley. Any vegetable or fruit is okay, as are non-processed meats (most lunch meat has modified food starch, which can be made from anything; thankfully, legislation is now in place where companies will be required to label WHAT kind of starch it is)But bread? Pasta? Pastry? Either I make it myself or spend a heckuva lot on specialty items.
And one essential to make gluten-free bread is xanthan gum, which comes from a micro-organism. I've often wondered what vegans who are gluten-intolerant would do about that... (there's also guar gum, but it can have odd digestive effects)
I doubt it, though I have met vegetarians who claimed it would be morally justifiable (though none who actually had.) Placenta also appears to be acceptable to some veggies - I have met a couple who have eaten it. There was a fad for it some years back when some bearded celebrity chef famously prepared placenta pate on his TV show here in the UK.
What I do find inexplicable is why, when so many veggies claim not only that it's morally unacceptable to eat meat, but that they also "don't like the taste", there is such a booming market for soya-based meat substitutes, designed to replicate the flavour and texture of meat as closely as possible (admittedly they're not actually much like it!)
What I do find inexplicable is why, when so many veggies claim not only that it's morally unacceptable to eat meat, but that they also "don't like the taste", there is such a booming market for soya-based meat substitutes, designed to replicate the flavour and texture of meat as closely as possible (admittedly they're not actually much like it!)
OK, I don't know who claimed eating meat was morally unacceptable, but it wasn't me. I think it is possible to have a healthy diet without meat if you think about your proteins, but I never said anyone else should do what I do. I think Ulrike has the right approach about listening to her body. My body doesn't want meat so I don't eat it.
Ulrike, I'm sorry to hear about you condition. I have friends who are diabetic, and I know how hard it can be. In fact, I have a friend who is a diabetic vegetarian, and she is much stricter than I am about animal products in her food.
As for soy eating Vegetarians--we need protein. Also, we don't want to be attacked by meat-eaters at BBQs. I never tell people what to eat, but you would be surprised how many people take personal offense at my choices.
For me, it is not a moral or political statement. It's a personal choice. Yes, I think it's a part of my yoga, but it doesn't have to be. It's just what works for me.
*Opens beer and listens to yeast screaming* *Gives thanks to dying yeast*
Ulrike, I'm sorry to hear about you condition. I have friends who are diabetic, and I know how hard it can be. In fact, I have a friend who is a diabetic vegetarian, and she is much stricter than I am about animal products in her food.
As for soy eating Vegetarians--we need protein. Also, we don't want to be attacked by meat-eaters at BBQs. I never tell people what to eat, but you would be surprised how many people take personal offense at my choices.
For me, it is not a moral or political statement. It's a personal choice. Yes, I think it's a part of my yoga, but it doesn't have to be. It's just what works for me.
*Opens beer and listens to yeast screaming* *Gives thanks to dying yeast*
Thanks Bev, but I find it amusing that most people think my condition is so awful. To be honest, it's very liberating. Why? Because it's impossible for me to fall back on the SAD diet. It's impossible for me to follow "standard" food conventions. Since those are mostly unhealthy, I find this an advantage.The only things I really miss are shredded wheat and triscuits. For everything else, I've found an equivalent that I like just as well (or cut it out without missing it at all). I used to miss Grapenuts, until I discovered kasha (roasted buckwheat, which is NOT related to wheat).
wow. you guys HAVE been busy in the bar. i come back after 4 days and i'm turning pages and pages.lol.
Im not a vegitarian but I rarely have meat unless someone else cooks it. I remember when an american slaughterhouse was charged for having more than the acceptable levels of feces in their meat... "There is an acceptable level of feces to be present in meat?"- was what kind of put me on the path of cutting out the fleshy side of my diet. Then after discovering what is done in factory-farms to chickens I pretty much wanted to shoot somebody in the kneecaps for that bit of psycho-sadism. Everytime I think about it it makes me really angry- even now after years. We have canines and forward focusing eyes along with molars- we are meant to eat whatever we can scrounge up- whether animal or not, but there is no need for abomination in the process.
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