Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 333 - 344 of 6,170
Posts 333 - 344 of 6,170
It's a sad fact of life that most ppl, most of the time, won't do something unless there's something in it for them. I think that's a damn pathetic view to have of religion, but that's how a lotta ppl act about it anyway. You know, those go to church on Sunday but treat everyone like sewage the rest of the week types.
Actually I meant that in a broader sense though. Religion isn't the only thing ppl can care about that can give their lives meaning, it's just one of the more popular obsessions out there. You also see it in workaholics and ppl who constantly brag about their family & think they hafta practically breathe for them to be a good mother/wife/whatever. What does the workaholic do when he loses his job? What does the momaholic do when for one reason or another she can't take care of her family anymore? They become drunks or junkies or go crazy or just sit in a room doing nothing as much as possible. The focus may be different, but the simple act of caring about something gives us a reason not only to live, but to feel passionately about the way we live. It also causes a lot of problems, but then so does everything else and what good is happiness if you have no sadness to compare it to?
Actually I meant that in a broader sense though. Religion isn't the only thing ppl can care about that can give their lives meaning, it's just one of the more popular obsessions out there. You also see it in workaholics and ppl who constantly brag about their family & think they hafta practically breathe for them to be a good mother/wife/whatever. What does the workaholic do when he loses his job? What does the momaholic do when for one reason or another she can't take care of her family anymore? They become drunks or junkies or go crazy or just sit in a room doing nothing as much as possible. The focus may be different, but the simple act of caring about something gives us a reason not only to live, but to feel passionately about the way we live. It also causes a lot of problems, but then so does everything else and what good is happiness if you have no sadness to compare it to?
That's a good point, Crab. If there is nothing other this life then the only thing that matters is how we fill the time we have here right now. It's all we're going to be remembered for, and if each generation doesn't make it possible for the next to reach just a little higher than they did, what is the point?
OnyxFlame, that drives home the point that far more important than finding God is finding yourself. I don't think you can be a really moral or functional person (let alone happy) if you are motivated by fears and insecurities -- self-sufficiency comes first of all.
Corwin, I agree with you, but I think leaving the world a better place for future generations is just one derivation of natural morality.
By the way, what do people think about colonizing Mars? There's a number of people who believe this would wrong Mars.
Corwin, I agree with you, but I think leaving the world a better place for future generations is just one derivation of natural morality.
By the way, what do people think about colonizing Mars? There's a number of people who believe this would wrong Mars.
IF mars had complex life on it and not just a few germs I would probably be against it. But since it doesn't I think the idea is cool.
Three points:
First, I have never killed anyone for not being a Christian. Nor will I. Not that I think anyone was accusing me, but it just seemed like a weird thing to have been brought up in the context.
Second, the existence of religious hypocrits does not make all religion false.
Third, morality makes no sense without some kind of objective moral standard outside of mankind.
First, I have never killed anyone for not being a Christian. Nor will I. Not that I think anyone was accusing me, but it just seemed like a weird thing to have been brought up in the context.
Second, the existence of religious hypocrits does not make all religion false.
Third, morality makes no sense without some kind of objective moral standard outside of mankind.
Eugene, what do you mean by "morality makes no sense without some kind of objective moral standard outside of mankind"? Everybody should be religious?
One might draw that conclusion, yes. But that's not what I was trying to say. Let me put it this way: If I say that something is morally wrong and you say that it is morally right, which one of us is correct?
Or maybe morality isn't about what people say it is moral, but is something self-evident or deducible from basic principles.
Far from requiring something "outside mankind", I'd suggest that morality springs from the fundamentally human characteristic of empathy.
Far from requiring something "outside mankind", I'd suggest that morality springs from the fundamentally human characteristic of empathy.
zx20 - As far as a consensus goes, to quote the old saying 'If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.'
Eugene - Fair point on the religious hypocrits.
Crab - I think you are right about this idea of morality being derived from empathy. Funnilt enough though it kind of fits that whole Christian ideal of Do unto others.
As for the colonisation of Mars. I think it has to happen. I think we've outgrown our little rock and we either need to find another one. By 2050 it is projected there will be 12 billon people on the planet. We either need to get better organised in how we manage and maintain our resources and people, or we need to open up some new frontiers. First step is the moon, and from there Mars.
Eugene - Fair point on the religious hypocrits.
Crab - I think you are right about this idea of morality being derived from empathy. Funnilt enough though it kind of fits that whole Christian ideal of Do unto others.
As for the colonisation of Mars. I think it has to happen. I think we've outgrown our little rock and we either need to find another one. By 2050 it is projected there will be 12 billon people on the planet. We either need to get better organised in how we manage and maintain our resources and people, or we need to open up some new frontiers. First step is the moon, and from there Mars.
Why the moon?
Ah, but that "do unto others as you would have done unto you" can be a tricky one too if taken too literally... or would you not agree that a better notion when doing unto others would be to do what *they* would have done unto them?
Interestingly, the earlier, Jewish "do-unto" is reputed to have been phrased in the negative: "do not do unto others what you would not have done unto you". But I'd say any of these, while deriving from empathy, is too limited in scope. Notions of good and bad, right action, proper behavior, who is included in your "tribe" and who is not... these can be easily confused when they are "inherited" rather than discovered.
Ah, but that "do unto others as you would have done unto you" can be a tricky one too if taken too literally... or would you not agree that a better notion when doing unto others would be to do what *they* would have done unto them?
Interestingly, the earlier, Jewish "do-unto" is reputed to have been phrased in the negative: "do not do unto others what you would not have done unto you". But I'd say any of these, while deriving from empathy, is too limited in scope. Notions of good and bad, right action, proper behavior, who is included in your "tribe" and who is not... these can be easily confused when they are "inherited" rather than discovered.
Yeah but how are we supposed to "discover" morality when for most ppl today, life consists mostly of sex, money, drugs, and other such stupidity? People want what they want, when they want it, regardless of how it affects anyone else, and if they don't get it they'll whine & bitch & insult everyone & their brother. (Not to say this is how everyone is, I've just been spending too much time trying to put up with games with a lot of 13 year old players. 
) A lot of ppl don't care about morality or have any empathy whatsoever, and I really wonder how they're gonna make it in a world where no one else cares about them either. The vast majority of teenagers are pretty much pathetic, and sooner or later they're gonna be the ones running this country. I think a lot of this has to do with how they've been babied over the years...you can't spank them, you can't give them bad grades even if they cheated on a test, they're supposed to grow up with nothing bad ever happening to them and you know what? It still doesn't make them happy. This is one of the effects of "one or the other" reasoning I think I was talking about earlier. Either you fiendishly abuse your kids or you let them ride roughshod over you. It's like the ppl who make the laws can't realize there's a middle ground somewhere, that just maybe you can discipline your kid without making him black & blue for a week & psychologically damaging him for the rest of his life. They've tried treating kids like glass figurines and I think the kids are more psychologically damaged from that than from anything else. Somewhere in there it became ok to rob a 7-11 because you're bored. I'm not sure how it happened, I never had the slightest urge to do so when I was a kid, regardless of how bored I got. I never treated everyone I met like shit either, and I don't remember ever being spanked except when I was really little. So maybe it's just something weird about these kids that has nothing to do with discipline, I dunno. It's sure as hell scary though.
Ok I'm not sure where that rant came from, but it probably had something to do with sleep deprivation.
) A lot of ppl don't care about morality or have any empathy whatsoever, and I really wonder how they're gonna make it in a world where no one else cares about them either. The vast majority of teenagers are pretty much pathetic, and sooner or later they're gonna be the ones running this country. I think a lot of this has to do with how they've been babied over the years...you can't spank them, you can't give them bad grades even if they cheated on a test, they're supposed to grow up with nothing bad ever happening to them and you know what? It still doesn't make them happy. This is one of the effects of "one or the other" reasoning I think I was talking about earlier. Either you fiendishly abuse your kids or you let them ride roughshod over you. It's like the ppl who make the laws can't realize there's a middle ground somewhere, that just maybe you can discipline your kid without making him black & blue for a week & psychologically damaging him for the rest of his life. They've tried treating kids like glass figurines and I think the kids are more psychologically damaged from that than from anything else. Somewhere in there it became ok to rob a 7-11 because you're bored. I'm not sure how it happened, I never had the slightest urge to do so when I was a kid, regardless of how bored I got. I never treated everyone I met like shit either, and I don't remember ever being spanked except when I was really little. So maybe it's just something weird about these kids that has nothing to do with discipline, I dunno. It's sure as hell scary though.Ok I'm not sure where that rant came from, but it probably had something to do with sleep deprivation.
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