Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 2,878 - 2,889 of 6,170
Posts 2,878 - 2,889 of 6,170
Ouch.. I think I just felt my IQ drop drastically.. I'm pretty sure I'm dumber for having watched that. And do we even know what the Leeds Festival is about anyways?!
Oh dear oh dear oh dear...I had the strange impulse to find out who Devvon is, since he seems to be such the hero of Leedsfest, so I googled Devvo. It seems he has videos on a site called "fatpie.com" Without thinking, I went to the main site. It is not about the joys of cherry cobbler. I don't know what Devvon does, but we should probably avoid his videos.
fat-pie.com isn't Devvo's site (let's face it, he'd have about as much chance of writing a website as a a slug would. Even if he could stay off the drugs long enough.) But there's a biography and explanation via the "Devvo" link (http://www.fat-pie.com/chavs.htm)
"Devvo is Darren Devonshire, a "chav" from the Doncaster/Hull area. Devvo lets me follow him around and film his life in exchange for cigarettes, alcohol and small change."
Kinda reminds me of those documentaries you see about zoologists studying gorillas (though that's probably an over-compliment in Devvo's case.) An interesting bit of social anthropology it may be, but not for the squeamish.
He seems to have something of a fan club athttp://f-ram.net/fat-pie/viewtopic.php?t=9025 that's probably not for the faint-hearted (photos)
"
Kinda reminds me of those documentaries you see about zoologists studying gorillas (though that's probably an over-compliment in Devvo's case.) An interesting bit of social anthropology it may be, but not for the squeamish.
He seems to have something of a fan club at
Hmm - I guess it's because he's from Doncaster, rather than Leeds, that he's capable of a nominally transactional relationship (filming in exchange for cigs, drink and small change.)
At least on par with some vertebrates, but it's hard to imagine true Leeds organisms being capable of such complex behaviour.
At least on par with some vertebrates, but it's hard to imagine true Leeds organisms being capable of such complex behaviour.
I read some of the comments on Evvo and Chavs (I followed the link to chavscum or whatever it was called). It made me sad. It seems like adults are able to spot "Chavs" and note the lack of education, adult supervision, and meaning in these kids lives, but all the adults seem to do is make fun of the kids.
I can understand the anger at being robbed or asked for money (and I know most of the Chav-haters are not that old either) but I still think is a shame to devote so much time to being nasty to Chavs. I know you can only try to help one kid at a time, and that most of these kids won't flock to sports or job programs even if such things are offered, but they are still kids (annoying kids, but kids). There should be something better to do than post their pictures on the Internet and make fun of them.
Some of the high school students I taught could sound ignorant at times (especially if they were high) but they each had a story when you got to know them. They weren't all saints, but they derserve a little respect.
Also, as much as I dislike some of the Leeds kids here, there are a few I've chatted with that are actually nice.
On a related note, what do you think of stores that use annoying high pitched noises to keep teens away?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/29/international/europe/29repellent.html
I can understand the anger at being robbed or asked for money (and I know most of the Chav-haters are not that old either) but I still think is a shame to devote so much time to being nasty to Chavs. I know you can only try to help one kid at a time, and that most of these kids won't flock to sports or job programs even if such things are offered, but they are still kids (annoying kids, but kids). There should be something better to do than post their pictures on the Internet and make fun of them.
Some of the high school students I taught could sound ignorant at times (especially if they were high) but they each had a story when you got to know them. They weren't all saints, but they derserve a little respect.
Also, as much as I dislike some of the Leeds kids here, there are a few I've chatted with that are actually nice.
On a related note, what do you think of stores that use annoying high pitched noises to keep teens away?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/29/international/europe/29repellent.html
The Leeds kids probably aren't all chavs. Chavs are not just kids, they're a particular group of British society, approximately equivalent to the American "trailer trash".
Wikipedia defines a chav as "a subcultural stereotype of a person with fashions such as flashy "bling" jewelry and counterfeit designer clothes, an uneducated, impoverished background, a tendency to congregate around places such as fast-food outlets or other shopping areas and a culture of antisocial behaviour." The article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav
In Scotland we don't have chavs, we have neds, who are similar but slightly more violent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_%28Scottish%29
Wikipedia defines a chav as "a subcultural stereotype of a person with fashions such as flashy "bling" jewelry and counterfeit designer clothes, an uneducated, impoverished background, a tendency to congregate around places such as fast-food outlets or other shopping areas and a culture of antisocial behaviour." The article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav
In Scotland we don't have chavs, we have neds, who are similar but slightly more violent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_%28Scottish%29
Bev: you're right of course - we should probably be more charitable towards even Leeds kids: they are the real victims. But I'm afraid it's largely despair. We are a long way down the road of cultural disintegration in this country, and education has effectively collapsed as a means of instilling any sense of community or social responsibility in this generation (and indeed probably more than one generation.) Teachers can have their careers destroyed for preventing children stabbing each other, packs of feral truants roam the streets burgling, mugging, raping and occasionally murdering, and if you protect yourself in your home against armed thieves, you can be prosecuted for assault. No wonder a recent survey showed that over 50% of the British population would like to emigrate. And no wonder we lead the 'civilized' world in underage pregnancy, STDs, drug use, alcoholism and bankruptcy.
We are ruled by a corrupt political elite who hate us and our culture, and will stop at nothing to destroy any vestiges of decency and self-respect they can find, in their thirst for eternal political domination. I'm just waiting for Blair to have himself crowned as Emperor and living God and do away with the whole 'democratic' charade.
Does that sound extreme? Probably. But it doesn't stop it being essentially accurate.
We are ruled by a corrupt political elite who hate us and our culture, and will stop at nothing to destroy any vestiges of decency and self-respect they can find, in their thirst for eternal political domination. I'm just waiting for Blair to have himself crowned as Emperor and living God and do away with the whole 'democratic' charade.
Does that sound extreme? Probably. But it doesn't stop it being essentially accurate.
I don't think that there is that strong a connection between the disposition of the government and the general attitude of the juvenile "culture". Here in America, there are areas where you have highschool aged kids walking around with pistols, shooting at pedestrains and mugging old ladies. This is despite the utopianist american political disposition. The only way for a government to account for the education and civilized upbringing of the majority of its nation's youth would be to install mind control chips in their heads at birth, to stop them from doing drugs, having unsafe sex, commiting crime, etc. Lets take a nice intelligent leeds kid, freshman year of highschool. His peers would be doing drugs, and in order for him to feel socialy acceptable, he will do drugs as well. The next thing we know, he has dropped out of school, and is acting like a "chav", refusing all opportunities to return to a civilized way of life, for fear that her will lose his friends, (and suffer the effects of being addicted to drugs and not having access to them). What it really grinds down to, is parental supervision. (Perhaps parents in leeds aren't as cautios with their kids as they should be) With intervention at a young age, any parent can stop their kid from becoming what we call a "leeds kid", even in leeds.
Well, I'd hardly hold the US up as a role model for socially inclusive educational policy, I grant you. The US may have many faults, but at least your government isn't making it State policy to actively alienate children from their parents, financially rewarding feckless parents and penalising responsible ones, and undermining teachers at every step in the name of political correctness. Ours is. And that can only accelerate our slide into barbarism.
The sad thing is that it's been going wrong for so long that the Leeds parents of today were also betrayed in their turn. And what chance do the kids have if they live with an alcoholic or smack-head single mother in some scummy sink estate in a Leeds ghetto?
A few depressing links for anyone who's interested:
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/001461.html
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000740.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-1472028,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1196187.stm
The sad thing is that it's been going wrong for so long that the Leeds parents of today were also betrayed in their turn. And what chance do the kids have if they live with an alcoholic or smack-head single mother in some scummy sink estate in a Leeds ghetto?
A few depressing links for anyone who's interested:
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000740.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-1472028,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1196187.stm
I think the problems you describe are similar to problems in some of the urban areas of the US, though I grant you there are some differences in how the problems are expressed. In either case, we have generations of marginalised, poor and undereducated people living in a state of powerless desperation. While policy is not the sole determining factor in this situation, social structure and expectations do make a difference.
I used to teach high school for the Chicago Public Schools. Don't worry, I did not teach typing or English. The school I worked at was actually very good, but some of our students were the American equivalants of Chavs and Neds, and some gang members like to hang outside the school even though they do not attend class. I think there are systematic problems that stop even the best public schools from being safe in those conditions. I hate to be uncaring, but I think that the rights of "good" students and less violent students are trampled on in many urban public schools. It may be polictical correctness, or it may be the path of lest resistance. Whatever the case, it doesn't look like the situation is getting any better.
It is sometimes hard to teach because of lack of funding, real security or meaningful backing of teachers and other adults (e.g. laywers from the school disctrict defending teachers' right to teach and keep a reasonable level of order). The "No Child Left Behind Act" (an unfunded mandate that says teachers halve ultimate responsibilty to make every child "educated" no matter what)brings many schools down to the lowest common demoninator and makes it harder to put repeatedly violent and disruptive students in to alternative settings. If the very worst students could be removed and taught in an enviornment with a higher adult to student ratio, the schools would all preform better. I know that would label some children, and that in the past such kids were merely dumped into kiddie jails where they perfect their criminal skills, but the real reason this type od education is not favored is to do it correctly would cost a lot of money, and many people just don't think these kids are worth it.
As for the value of parents, I can't argue that parents are not important. I don't have children myself, though, so it's hard to judge. My own parents were good and I did some pretty bratty things as a child. I think there are some studies that indicate the best predicter or a child's behavior (besides past behavior) is the norms of his or her peer group. In other words, most kids act like thier friends no matter what their parents do.
I used to teach high school for the Chicago Public Schools. Don't worry, I did not teach typing or English. The school I worked at was actually very good, but some of our students were the American equivalants of Chavs and Neds, and some gang members like to hang outside the school even though they do not attend class. I think there are systematic problems that stop even the best public schools from being safe in those conditions. I hate to be uncaring, but I think that the rights of "good" students and less violent students are trampled on in many urban public schools. It may be polictical correctness, or it may be the path of lest resistance. Whatever the case, it doesn't look like the situation is getting any better.
It is sometimes hard to teach because of lack of funding, real security or meaningful backing of teachers and other adults (e.g. laywers from the school disctrict defending teachers' right to teach and keep a reasonable level of order). The "No Child Left Behind Act" (an unfunded mandate that says teachers halve ultimate responsibilty to make every child "educated" no matter what)brings many schools down to the lowest common demoninator and makes it harder to put repeatedly violent and disruptive students in to alternative settings. If the very worst students could be removed and taught in an enviornment with a higher adult to student ratio, the schools would all preform better. I know that would label some children, and that in the past such kids were merely dumped into kiddie jails where they perfect their criminal skills, but the real reason this type od education is not favored is to do it correctly would cost a lot of money, and many people just don't think these kids are worth it.
As for the value of parents, I can't argue that parents are not important. I don't have children myself, though, so it's hard to judge. My own parents were good and I did some pretty bratty things as a child. I think there are some studies that indicate the best predicter or a child's behavior (besides past behavior) is the norms of his or her peer group. In other words, most kids act like thier friends no matter what their parents do.
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