Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 2,367 - 2,378 of 6,170
Posts 2,367 - 2,378 of 6,170
Again, a God who created other beings and wanted them to enjoy life would not want them to serve him out of abject terror of being burned forever if they didn't choose obedience to him. It's like this...a universal score chart, if you will.
Adam, if you believe the creation story, and you do, for all purposes, if you claim Christianity...Adam had the ability to procreate a whole race of perfect humans like him, no sickness, no dying, disease, etc...but he sinned first. And in Romans it says "the wages sin pays is death"
He sinned with the perfect race still "in his loins" Okay, so we now have a negative 1 on the score sheet. A perfect man sinned, and died as a result.
Now, Jesus, a "perfect' human, DID NOT SIN, and yet died. That is the inverse of the "sinned, thus died" That now gives us a 1 on the other side of the score sheet, thus now the score is even. That was God's law of justice, a life for a life, eye for eye, yes, that's part of the mosaic law, which was annulled with Jesus death. Now, if God, if you believe in him, holds so closely to his own standards of justice, even though it caused him so much pain to see his 'son' go through an excrutiating death, called names, spit on, tortured...to save us from...Hell? A fiery hell? He loved us "the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed, but have everlasting life."
It doesn't say they'll be saved from burning. Adam wasn't told he'd go to hell if he disobeyed. No, he was told he would die. Not part of him die and the rest go to hell either. The hellfire doctine relies on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, unfortunately another greek philosophy. If you look at the original words in the hebrew text for soul, you will see that Adam
'became' a soul, not came to have a soul. And the Israelites were told not to touch a dead soul. how can you touch a dead soul? The animals are spoken of as souls. NOt having souls. Another reason the hellfire doctrine is not scriptural. I don't really know if this is the right forum to be posting this in, but since we're on the subject, and I've done such extensive research on it, I feel kind of compelled to speak up about it.
Adam, if you believe the creation story, and you do, for all purposes, if you claim Christianity...Adam had the ability to procreate a whole race of perfect humans like him, no sickness, no dying, disease, etc...but he sinned first. And in Romans it says "the wages sin pays is death"
He sinned with the perfect race still "in his loins" Okay, so we now have a negative 1 on the score sheet. A perfect man sinned, and died as a result.
Now, Jesus, a "perfect' human, DID NOT SIN, and yet died. That is the inverse of the "sinned, thus died" That now gives us a 1 on the other side of the score sheet, thus now the score is even. That was God's law of justice, a life for a life, eye for eye, yes, that's part of the mosaic law, which was annulled with Jesus death. Now, if God, if you believe in him, holds so closely to his own standards of justice, even though it caused him so much pain to see his 'son' go through an excrutiating death, called names, spit on, tortured...to save us from...Hell? A fiery hell? He loved us "the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed, but have everlasting life."
It doesn't say they'll be saved from burning. Adam wasn't told he'd go to hell if he disobeyed. No, he was told he would die. Not part of him die and the rest go to hell either. The hellfire doctine relies on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, unfortunately another greek philosophy. If you look at the original words in the hebrew text for soul, you will see that Adam
'became' a soul, not came to have a soul. And the Israelites were told not to touch a dead soul. how can you touch a dead soul? The animals are spoken of as souls. NOt having souls. Another reason the hellfire doctrine is not scriptural. I don't really know if this is the right forum to be posting this in, but since we're on the subject, and I've done such extensive research on it, I feel kind of compelled to speak up about it.
Saved from death. Death, if you look at Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, means you cease to exist. emotion, thought, everything ceases. That's what mankind has been saved from by Jesus death, again, if that's what you believe in, if you claim to be christian, because that's just what it is...
EUGENE: Perhaps the hell that JC was saving people from was not the infernal extra-worldly one, but the Hell of an eye-for-an-eye world in which there were no unifying constants for morality and ethics. By the way: "INRI" written across the cross, in one interpretation means (in latin): "And he shall not ask again" thought to be a response to "Why hast thou forsaken me?"
EZZER: Just as the blind will be able to hear far better than the sighted, the emotionally retarded will show great skills in areas that do not emotionally involve them. Unfortunately (the imperical) you cannot help them because they have to realize on a reptillian-instinctual core level that there is some benefit to emotional growth. 99% of the time this means a lot of suffering experianced and unfortunately dealt out to get to that point (and depending on the person's psychological pain threshold they might NEVER come to that point)
CHARLES: a thought- perhaps souls on a dead-end progression are reabsorbed into It whereas those whom still amuse the divine are allowed to reincarnate so long as that is the case. Call it splitting hairs but I have a hard time with the concept of the divine eraseing something's existance. Like the thermodynaic law that nothing is ever destroyed I believe that even identities in some way are transformed as opposed to scourged.
(add this disclaimer to everything I ever say
-but ultimately I have no idea.
EZZER: Just as the blind will be able to hear far better than the sighted, the emotionally retarded will show great skills in areas that do not emotionally involve them. Unfortunately (the imperical) you cannot help them because they have to realize on a reptillian-instinctual core level that there is some benefit to emotional growth. 99% of the time this means a lot of suffering experianced and unfortunately dealt out to get to that point (and depending on the person's psychological pain threshold they might NEVER come to that point)
CHARLES: a thought- perhaps souls on a dead-end progression are reabsorbed into It whereas those whom still amuse the divine are allowed to reincarnate so long as that is the case. Call it splitting hairs but I have a hard time with the concept of the divine eraseing something's existance. Like the thermodynaic law that nothing is ever destroyed I believe that even identities in some way are transformed as opposed to scourged.
(add this disclaimer to everything I ever say
-but ultimately I have no idea.
D, sweetie, I spell everything wrong. I think anyone who a posts with only one error is great. (I would write everything in MS Word, run spellcheck and paste, but I'm too lazy). Anyone wanting to reprogram the left side of my brain is welcome to try.
Charles -- If the Bible doesn't teach the immortality of the soul, then how can everlasting life be promised to believers, since they physically die?
Just to throw another interpretation into the mix (like we don't have enough already 
), in eastern thought there are three major things that can happen to a person's soul after death:
1) It can reincarnate in some other form (not necessarily human, depending on the tradition)
2) It can 'decompose' into raw spiritual matter, which will then be used in the construction of new souls (much like bodies decompose and provide sustenance for other lifeforms)
3) It can become immortal/enlightened and last forever, without need for a physical body.
There are also heavens and hells in eastern mythology, but they don't play a large part in eastern philosophy.
), in eastern thought there are three major things that can happen to a person's soul after death:1) It can reincarnate in some other form (not necessarily human, depending on the tradition)
2) It can 'decompose' into raw spiritual matter, which will then be used in the construction of new souls (much like bodies decompose and provide sustenance for other lifeforms)
3) It can become immortal/enlightened and last forever, without need for a physical body.
There are also heavens and hells in eastern mythology, but they don't play a large part in eastern philosophy.
I just ran across an interesting site:
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
Based on a series of 20 questions, it tries to match you to a religion. Seems to me it really takes more than 20 questions to do an accurate job, but it was interesting to play with. WARNING: have your pop-up blocker on.
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
Based on a series of 20 questions, it tries to match you to a religion. Seems to me it really takes more than 20 questions to do an accurate job, but it was interesting to play with. WARNING: have your pop-up blocker on.
Eugene, to answer your question about how everlasting life can be promised to believers, since they physically die...
I don't know if you claim christianity or not, but IF you do, you are probably familiar with the story of Adam and Eve, again. At Genesis 3:15 was the first prophecy that foretold the coming of Christ. Anyway, think about it...what was God's original purpose for the earth? For people to use it as a testing ground before being shipped off to heaven? No. He told Adam and Eve to cultivate the ground, to fill the earth and subdue it. And they were to do it for how long? Well? The only thing that would cause their time to run out was if they deliberately went against God. I mean, come ON! They had all, ALL the trees to eat from, and God labeled just ONE tree and said, "now listen here, this is mine, don't eat from just this one"...that sounds perfectly fair to me...anyway, if they disobeyed, they would die, and it wasn't God destroying them, they died because they made a bad decision. But think about this...(we're getting off the point)...think about this - where would Adam and Eve be today if they hadn't sinned? If they hadn't died? Man, Eve would be one heck of a cook, eh? almost 6,000 years she's been cookin'!! Do you think they would have old decrepid bodies? No. That all came about from disease, and parts of the body shutting down.
So if the creator has the power to create human bodies that can live forever, then certainly he could give us the ability to do so. And the believers who have died? John 5:28,29...there will be a resurrection. That is at the heart of the Christian faith.
I bet your next question will be, "But none of us has gotten everlasting life, have we? So when do we beleivers receive it?"
Again, this is from lots of my own Bible study and study with others, but this is what I've found...in the scriptures there is a war coming, the war of Armageddon, and it ain't gonna be like the movies. This is God's war against those who arrogantly defy him. There's more to it than that, but we won't get into that. After Armageddon, there will be a cleansed earth, of course, free of the people who cause crime, violence, etc...and Revelation 21:3,4 will be fulfilled...my post has already been too long already, so I won't quote it, but it says there will be no more death, sickness, emotional pain, etc...again, I'm not trying to convert anyone here, just trying to explain answers to questions about Christian faith.
I don't know if you claim christianity or not, but IF you do, you are probably familiar with the story of Adam and Eve, again. At Genesis 3:15 was the first prophecy that foretold the coming of Christ. Anyway, think about it...what was God's original purpose for the earth? For people to use it as a testing ground before being shipped off to heaven? No. He told Adam and Eve to cultivate the ground, to fill the earth and subdue it. And they were to do it for how long? Well? The only thing that would cause their time to run out was if they deliberately went against God. I mean, come ON! They had all, ALL the trees to eat from, and God labeled just ONE tree and said, "now listen here, this is mine, don't eat from just this one"...that sounds perfectly fair to me...anyway, if they disobeyed, they would die, and it wasn't God destroying them, they died because they made a bad decision. But think about this...(we're getting off the point)...think about this - where would Adam and Eve be today if they hadn't sinned? If they hadn't died? Man, Eve would be one heck of a cook, eh? almost 6,000 years she's been cookin'!! Do you think they would have old decrepid bodies? No. That all came about from disease, and parts of the body shutting down.
So if the creator has the power to create human bodies that can live forever, then certainly he could give us the ability to do so. And the believers who have died? John 5:28,29...there will be a resurrection. That is at the heart of the Christian faith.
I bet your next question will be, "But none of us has gotten everlasting life, have we? So when do we beleivers receive it?"
Again, this is from lots of my own Bible study and study with others, but this is what I've found...in the scriptures there is a war coming, the war of Armageddon, and it ain't gonna be like the movies. This is God's war against those who arrogantly defy him. There's more to it than that, but we won't get into that. After Armageddon, there will be a cleansed earth, of course, free of the people who cause crime, violence, etc...and Revelation 21:3,4 will be fulfilled...my post has already been too long already, so I won't quote it, but it says there will be no more death, sickness, emotional pain, etc...again, I'm not trying to convert anyone here, just trying to explain answers to questions about Christian faith.
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