Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
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Bev:
How can evil be subjective? Does that mean that if I didn't think that torturing babies just for fun wasn't evil, it wouldn't be?
Posts 5,623 - 5,634 of 6,170
[continued] "zeal, persistence, firmess, and resolve" are characteristics shared by many people and cannot explain Hitler's ascendancy by themselves.
You wrote, "Economic genius? Hardly. It is true that German economy grew rapidly under Hitler, but it was almost exclusively a war economy. He was building a prototype industrial military complex, inspired not by his genius, but by his big hero, Benito Mussolini."
Hitler by far overshadowed Mussolini. Yes, it was primarily a war economy, but the point is that it worked. Many countries have simply exhausted themselves running a war economy. War is hardly a magic ticket to prosperity; on the contrary, it consumes vast resources without re-investing them. Has the Iraq/Afghanistan war created prosperity for the USA? Not at all!
You wrote, "Economic genius? Hardly. It is true that German economy grew rapidly under Hitler, but it was almost exclusively a war economy. He was building a prototype industrial military complex, inspired not by his genius, but by his big hero, Benito Mussolini."
Hitler by far overshadowed Mussolini. Yes, it was primarily a war economy, but the point is that it worked. Many countries have simply exhausted themselves running a war economy. War is hardly a magic ticket to prosperity; on the contrary, it consumes vast resources without re-investing them. Has the Iraq/Afghanistan war created prosperity for the USA? Not at all!
You wrote:
"More importantly, it was the industrial leaders of the time who were in favour of fascism and strong, centralized, corporate type state. And they were ready to support (finance) any such project, ..."
Perhaps so, but why did they choose to finance Hitler, rather than any number of other people, many of whom had experience and connections in politics and economics? Hitler had an astonishing ability to convince anyone that he was on their side. An amazing number of liberals and left-wingers supported him for a long time.
"More importantly, it was the industrial leaders of the time who were in favour of fascism and strong, centralized, corporate type state. And they were ready to support (finance) any such project, ..."
Perhaps so, but why did they choose to finance Hitler, rather than any number of other people, many of whom had experience and connections in politics and economics? Hitler had an astonishing ability to convince anyone that he was on their side. An amazing number of liberals and left-wingers supported him for a long time.
""How to Get Away With Torture" says washingtonpost.com... Does it take a genius to set up and run Guantánamo? Are we, an incredible number of us, being fooled... again..?"
Well, yes. I add Karl Rove to the list of evil geniuses, or at least, to the list of very bright evil people.
Well, yes. I add Karl Rove to the list of evil geniuses, or at least, to the list of very bright evil people.
It doesn't take a genius to set up and run Guantanomo, it takes a genius to do that and numerous other things and get away with every last one of them.
PS Why should your opinion have to be humble 
No one's point of view should be marginalized just cos we are all biased and subjective--it's a human thing.
No one's point of view should be marginalized just cos we are all biased and subjective--it's a human thing. 
Yeah. I forgot to make my remarks humble or opinionated. Just the facts.
Seriously, genius is cognitive (whether artistic or mathematical). It's a gift. Mental illness (wherein evil may reside) is not -- it's a deficit. Obviously both can and do coexist. Some mental illnesses make people do evil things. Add in genius and you have an evil genius. But I guess then the question for me is always whether these evil-doers are more sinned-against than sinning. I'm just grateful not to be a pedophile or something that people hate themselves for and can't be stopped except by life-long incarceration. In that case, I'd say the humane thing to do would be to give me the lethal injection. It's not as if they chose to be pedophiles or can control their impulses. So I hear. And of course I feel for the victims. But that doesn't mean I can't feel for the villains as well.
So is it the behavior that's evil or the people?
And I know this sounds dangerously close to churches who love gay people while hating homosexuality. The difference is that being gay isn't evil, according to the APA, whose opinions are anything but humble.
Did we ever define evil in this thread? I forget.
Seriously, genius is cognitive (whether artistic or mathematical). It's a gift. Mental illness (wherein evil may reside) is not -- it's a deficit. Obviously both can and do coexist. Some mental illnesses make people do evil things. Add in genius and you have an evil genius. But I guess then the question for me is always whether these evil-doers are more sinned-against than sinning. I'm just grateful not to be a pedophile or something that people hate themselves for and can't be stopped except by life-long incarceration. In that case, I'd say the humane thing to do would be to give me the lethal injection. It's not as if they chose to be pedophiles or can control their impulses. So I hear. And of course I feel for the victims. But that doesn't mean I can't feel for the villains as well.
So is it the behavior that's evil or the people?
And I know this sounds dangerously close to churches who love gay people while hating homosexuality. The difference is that being gay isn't evil, according to the APA, whose opinions are anything but humble.
Did we ever define evil in this thread? I forget.
Bev:
How can evil be subjective? Does that mean that if I didn't think that torturing babies just for fun wasn't evil, it wouldn't be?
Irina, if you didn't think torturing babies was wrong, it means it wouldn't be evil to you. It would still be evil to me and I would act accordingly. If you lived in a society where most thought it was evil and would punish you, you would either (a) learn to think of it as evil (b) learn to hide it or (c) get caught and suffer the consequences.
I define evil subjectively, thought my own standards, values and experiences. It's evil to me if it uses others a objects, or a means to your own ends, and especially if it hurts them for your own gain. It's good to me if it cultivates compassion and awareness of our connection to each other and the greater whole. That's just a quick and dirty summary of my own values and worldview. YMMV. Societies tend to have a collective version of that, though if my standards are different from that of another culture, I keep mine and don't care what people say about my ignorance for judging what I could not possibly understand from the outside. I will try to understand the other culture and all that, but that doesn't mean I will give up my subjective view that beating up people who are weaker than you (like women or monks) is wrong. It's my perspective and I am keeping it (and acting on it when I can).
I define evil subjectively, thought my own standards, values and experiences. It's evil to me if it uses others a objects, or a means to your own ends, and especially if it hurts them for your own gain. It's good to me if it cultivates compassion and awareness of our connection to each other and the greater whole. That's just a quick and dirty summary of my own values and worldview. YMMV. Societies tend to have a collective version of that, though if my standards are different from that of another culture, I keep mine and don't care what people say about my ignorance for judging what I could not possibly understand from the outside. I will try to understand the other culture and all that, but that doesn't mean I will give up my subjective view that beating up people who are weaker than you (like women or monks) is wrong. It's my perspective and I am keeping it (and acting on it when I can).
The Clerk:
IMHO, a person is not morally responsible for any matter in which he has no choice. Suppose you are tied to a chair with a button near your right foot; someone taps you under your right knee with a little hammer and by reflex, your foot kicks out and depresses the button, which (as you knew all along) sets off a bomb killing 100 children. You are not morally responsible for their deaths, since a reflex action is not voluntary.
If a pedophile truly cannot help himself, then he is not evil, only unfortunate.
IMHO, a person is not morally responsible for any matter in which he has no choice. Suppose you are tied to a chair with a button near your right foot; someone taps you under your right knee with a little hammer and by reflex, your foot kicks out and depresses the button, which (as you knew all along) sets off a bomb killing 100 children. You are not morally responsible for their deaths, since a reflex action is not voluntary.
If a pedophile truly cannot help himself, then he is not evil, only unfortunate.
Clerk, though I tend to in general think of the behavior as "evil" and not the people (I was raised Lutheran and all that) and I also think biochemical factors play a huge role along with social factors in shaping our behaviors, I don't think I will completely give up on the concept of internal choice also being a factor. Arguably, one of the reasons creatures with some level of self-awareness and ability to make choices based on all the information they receive evolved and flourished is that the ability to make choices that made it more likely they would survive, attract mates, and pass on the choice-making ability in their genes. While I grant you our choices are limited by our ability to fully use our brain, our internal chemistry and filters, our education and our environment, humans are still, by and large, able to make many choices about their own behaviors, including, for the most part, which impulses are safe to act on and which are not.
Though in some cases people people may be truly unable to control behavior, in many more I believe they may uses the impulses as an excuse to act in what they see as their interest or desire when they think they can get away with it. Therefore, if a pedophile randomly jumps on children in public with parents and police present regardless of the consequences, I believe he or she has no ability to control it. If the pedophile plans and waits, manipulates and minimizes his or her chances of being caught, then he or she had control. Even if they cry and say they knew what they did was wrong and they felt guilty, I think they are really just feeling sorry for themselves. It's sort of like men who "snap" and beat up their wives and the cry about how awful it was for them and they just couldn't help it. Funny, they never seem to snap in a biker bar and randomly hit Mountain Mike or "The Brute" Johnson. If the break was totally out of control, they would hit their boss, random strangers and the local cop. All the crocodile tears in the world only mean they pity themselves, not much different than a cheater who cries because he got caught. Biology may give them the impulse, and society may give them mixed messages but they still made a choice.
Though in some cases people people may be truly unable to control behavior, in many more I believe they may uses the impulses as an excuse to act in what they see as their interest or desire when they think they can get away with it. Therefore, if a pedophile randomly jumps on children in public with parents and police present regardless of the consequences, I believe he or she has no ability to control it. If the pedophile plans and waits, manipulates and minimizes his or her chances of being caught, then he or she had control. Even if they cry and say they knew what they did was wrong and they felt guilty, I think they are really just feeling sorry for themselves. It's sort of like men who "snap" and beat up their wives and the cry about how awful it was for them and they just couldn't help it. Funny, they never seem to snap in a biker bar and randomly hit Mountain Mike or "The Brute" Johnson. If the break was totally out of control, they would hit their boss, random strangers and the local cop. All the crocodile tears in the world only mean they pity themselves, not much different than a cheater who cries because he got caught. Biology may give them the impulse, and society may give them mixed messages but they still made a choice.
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