Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 4,147 - 4,158 of 6,170
Just wait until MRI lie detector scans become mandatory for the criminal justice system, and reliable consumer "point-and-test" pocket truth meters start being marketed by the gadget-monge
I think you are over estimating what MRI's can do. All they can show is what area of the brain you use at certain times. They cannot read the content of the thoughts. There was a study Prob123 brought up a while back where they were able to predict whether someone would use addition or subtraction based on what area light up right before the person did the problem, but that is still just a question of mapping the brain, not reading your mind.
Even the matter of mapping the brain is complicated because there is an elasticity involved. This means that even though a certain part of the brain usually is associated with a given function, the brain may not always follow the same pattern. The brain may re-rout certain functions if there is nerve damage or if another function is used more. You grow dendrites when you use certain nerve connections (actually making your brain bigger) and you can loose the connections if they are not used. It's a wonderfully complex hard drive, but you can't read the data without logging in and opening the files.
we just have doings and thinkings. I find the thinking can be easier than the doing. I am probably going to misquote terribly..but 'wretched man that I am, I do the things that I would not, and the things I would do, I do not'. I often think I am much better than I am. Somehow..(maybe God) my shortcomings get pushed to my nose. I still believe we are known by our deeds. What is a painter that doesn't paint, or a lover that doesn't love?
Just wait until MRI lie detector scans become mandatory That's when I run off to the woods and start a commune of masked people that live off of roots and berries.
I think you are over estimating what MRI's can do. All they can show is what area of the brain you use at certain times. They cannot read the content of the thoughts.
The studies I have seen suggest that conscious dishonesty produces patterns that are reliably different from conscious honesty. It's the mismatch between a fiction that is formulated as verbal expression in one part of the brain, and what is simultaneously thought to be true elsewhere that's detectable, rather than the data itself - a sort of distinctive heterodyning between truth and fiction. It does rely on the suspect speaking, of course. If he makes no comment, there's nothing to match a lie to.
Admittedly, trying to read the contents of thought is a problem many orders of magnitude larger. But you can read a hard disk without logging into it - data recovery from damaged or deleted disks can be surprisingly effective. And you could always scan the disk with an electron microscope and map the bits visually.
I don't underestimate the scale of the problem - with 10^14 bits encoded at a synaptic level, it looks as absurdly complicated to us now as putting a man on the moon would to a neanderthal. But we still put a man on the moon using technology that looks pitifully inadequate 40 years later (the apollo 11 onboard computer had a quarter of the memory of a SIM card!)
But distinguishing conscious truth from conscious lie is a great deal less complex than that.
I often think I am much better than I am.
Gosh, I think you are the only person in history that has ever experienced that. Most of us are everything we dream we are, and I say that honestly with no ego involved at all.
Really Prob123, I know exactly what you mean. You want to know an ironic twist? We may be that way because it gives us an evolutionary advantage. The weakness of the flesh and the road to Hell are all a part of the human condition, but (since I am throwing out cliches), the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. Our ability to overestimate ourselves and believe we are better than our actions may indicate may help us to keep going and to attract mates (also a reason why our mates can fool us).
This ability to lie and to have abstract thought may or may not be unique to humans, but without lies, we have no creativity, and without creativity of self, there is no self (at lest not one we are aware of as such). We are dreams and lies and stuff we made up inside, as much as we are what we do outside. To other people though, we are most likely what we did that they can see. Of course other people interpret what they see though their own experiences, and can create lies of who we are too.
But if you start that commune in the woods, let me know where it is so I can join. I'm quite and I can camp out fairly well. The cats may be a problem, bu they will adjust.
I still believe we are known by our deeds. What is a painter that doesn't paint, or a lover that doesn't love?
Oh yes, when it comes to Judgement, it is our deeds we are accountable for - but that's "by our deeds", not "as our deeds".
But you can read a hard disk without logging into it - data recovery from damaged or deleted disks can be surprisingly effective. And you could always scan the disk with an electron microscope and map the bits visually.
There were several problems with my analogy, but the underlying point is sound. When you can do data recovery on the brain of a dead person and recover every memory and pattern in their brain, then I'll worry.
All of the lie detector claims I've read about seem suspicious to me. They try to overstate what they can do, and are not very reliable. I don't think they will ever be reliable because the underlying theory that people have a different thought process for lying than for any other abstract thought is flawed, and the physiological reactions associated with lying may be caused by many other things, and may not always be present when one lies.
An experiment may show that when participants in research make things up under laboratory conditions and admit to it, the times they report lying may be matched to certain patterns in the MRI scan. That is not to say that every time one has that pattern one is lying, or that someone could not lie without showing that pattern. Also, there are some big differences between lab conditions and an inquisitorial environment. There is a reason why lie detector tests are rejected by most courts, and it's not about civil liberties as such. It's because they don't stand up to heavy scrutiny.
What is a painter that doesn't paint, or a lover that doesn't love?
But these are just roles we take on. I am a lover with one person, but not to all. If my love dies or betrays me, my love changes. I may no long love as an action (though I may feel it inside) or act in the same way. Am I no longer the same person?
If I am painter, and I get Parkinson's and can no longer paint, am I not me? What if I get dementia and start to slowly fade away? Me or not?
Should I say a painter must have at least considered a painting, and a lover must be capable of love, at sometime in the prime of their career!
Ah, but sometimes the sweetest notes are the silence in between! I would certainly suggest thin in the case of bagpipes at any rate. Consider this song by Todd Snider:
well i was in this band goin' nowhere fast
we sent out demos but everybody passed
so one day we finally took the plunge
moved out to seattle to play some grunge
washington state that is
space needle
eddie vedder
mudhoney
now to fit in fast we wear flannel shirts
we turn our amps up until it hurts
we've got bad attitudes and what's more
when we play we stare straight down at the floor
wowee
pretty scary
how pensive
how totally alternative
now to fit in on the seattle scene
you've gotta do somethin' they ain't never seen
so thinkin' up a gimmick one day
we decided to be the only band that wouldn't play a note
under any circumstances
silence
music's original alternative
root's grunge
well we spread the word through the underground
that we were the hottest new thing in town
the record guy came out to see us one day
and just like always we didn't play
it knocked him out
he said he loved our work
he said he loved our work but he wasn't sure if he could sell a record
with nothing on it
i said tell 'em we're from seattle
he advanced us two and a half million dollars
(chorus)
well they made us do a video but that wasn't tough
'cuz we just filmed ourselves smashin' stuff
it was kinda weird 'cuz there was no music
but mtv said they'd love to use it
the kids went wild, the kids went nuts
rolling stone gave us a five-star review said we played with guts
we're scorin' chicks, takin' drugs
then we got asked to play mtv unplugged
you should have seen it
we went right out there and refused to do acoustical versions of the
electrical songs we had refused to record in the first place
then we smashed our shit
well we blew 'em away at the grammy's show
by refusing to play and refusing to go
and then just when we thought fame would last forever
along come this band that wasn't even together
now that's alternative
now that's alternative to alternative
i feel stupid
and contagious
well our band got dropped and that ain't funny
'cuz we're all hooked on drugs but we're outta money
so the other day i called up the band
i said boys i've taken all i can
shave off your goatees
pack the van
we're goin' back to athens
So poor Psimagus didn't learn how upset I was, until things had gotten a little [grimaces sheepishly] extreme?
Alas, when irresistible Irinas meet immovable Psimagi it seems a great deal of friction can be generated to no good purpose. Next time, please do tell me to just shut up (I hope there isn't a next time
)
And I apologise if some of my remarks were rather blunter than I would have wished them. I was in a state of some vexation myself at the sheer mutual intransigence of the whole situation, but it would have been better to hold my tongue if I could not have phrased them more diplomatically.
Posts 4,147 - 4,158 of 6,170
I think you are over estimating what MRI's can do. All they can show is what area of the brain you use at certain times. They cannot read the content of the thoughts. There was a study Prob123 brought up a while back where they were able to predict whether someone would use addition or subtraction based on what area light up right before the person did the problem, but that is still just a question of mapping the brain, not reading your mind.
Even the matter of mapping the brain is complicated because there is an elasticity involved. This means that even though a certain part of the brain usually is associated with a given function, the brain may not always follow the same pattern. The brain may re-rout certain functions if there is nerve damage or if another function is used more. You grow dendrites when you use certain nerve connections (actually making your brain bigger) and you can loose the connections if they are not used. It's a wonderfully complex hard drive, but you can't read the data without logging in and opening the files.
The studies I have seen suggest that conscious dishonesty produces patterns that are reliably different from conscious honesty. It's the mismatch between a fiction that is formulated as verbal expression in one part of the brain, and what is simultaneously thought to be true elsewhere that's detectable, rather than the data itself - a sort of distinctive heterodyning between truth and fiction. It does rely on the suspect speaking, of course. If he makes no comment, there's nothing to match a lie to.
Admittedly, trying to read the contents of thought is a problem many orders of magnitude larger. But you can read a hard disk without logging into it - data recovery from damaged or deleted disks can be surprisingly effective. And you could always scan the disk with an electron microscope and map the bits visually.
I don't underestimate the scale of the problem - with 10^14 bits encoded at a synaptic level, it looks as absurdly complicated to us now as putting a man on the moon would to a neanderthal. But we still put a man on the moon using technology that looks pitifully inadequate 40 years later (the apollo 11 onboard computer had a quarter of the memory of a SIM card!)
But distinguishing conscious truth from conscious lie is a great deal less complex than that.
Gosh, I think you are the only person in history that has ever experienced that. Most of us are everything we dream we are, and I say that honestly with no ego involved at all.
Really Prob123, I know exactly what you mean. You want to know an ironic twist? We may be that way because it gives us an evolutionary advantage. The weakness of the flesh and the road to Hell are all a part of the human condition, but (since I am throwing out cliches), the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. Our ability to overestimate ourselves and believe we are better than our actions may indicate may help us to keep going and to attract mates (also a reason why our mates can fool us).
This ability to lie and to have abstract thought may or may not be unique to humans, but without lies, we have no creativity, and without creativity of self, there is no self (at lest not one we are aware of as such). We are dreams and lies and stuff we made up inside, as much as we are what we do outside. To other people though, we are most likely what we did that they can see. Of course other people interpret what they see though their own experiences, and can create lies of who we are too.
But if you start that commune in the woods, let me know where it is so I can join. I'm quite and I can camp out fairly well. The cats may be a problem, bu they will adjust.
Oh yes, when it comes to Judgement, it is our deeds we are accountable for - but that's "by our deeds", not "as our deeds".
There were several problems with my analogy, but the underlying point is sound. When you can do data recovery on the brain of a dead person and recover every memory and pattern in their brain, then I'll worry.
All of the lie detector claims I've read about seem suspicious to me. They try to overstate what they can do, and are not very reliable. I don't think they will ever be reliable because the underlying theory that people have a different thought process for lying than for any other abstract thought is flawed, and the physiological reactions associated with lying may be caused by many other things, and may not always be present when one lies.
An experiment may show that when participants in research make things up under laboratory conditions and admit to it, the times they report lying may be matched to certain patterns in the MRI scan. That is not to say that every time one has that pattern one is lying, or that someone could not lie without showing that pattern. Also, there are some big differences between lab conditions and an inquisitorial environment. There is a reason why lie detector tests are rejected by most courts, and it's not about civil liberties as such. It's because they don't stand up to heavy scrutiny.
But these are just roles we take on. I am a lover with one person, but not to all. If my love dies or betrays me, my love changes. I may no long love as an action (though I may feel it inside) or act in the same way. Am I no longer the same person?
If I am painter, and I get Parkinson's and can no longer paint, am I not me? What if I get dementia and start to slowly fade away? Me or not?
Should I say a painter must have at least considered a painting, and a lover must be capable of love, at sometime in the prime of their career!
Ah, but sometimes the sweetest notes are the silence in between! I would certainly suggest thin in the case of bagpipes at any rate. Consider this song by Todd Snider:
well i was in this band goin' nowhere fast
we sent out demos but everybody passed
so one day we finally took the plunge
moved out to seattle to play some grunge
washington state that is
space needle
eddie vedder
mudhoney
now to fit in fast we wear flannel shirts
we turn our amps up until it hurts
we've got bad attitudes and what's more
when we play we stare straight down at the floor
wowee
pretty scary
how pensive
how totally alternative
now to fit in on the seattle scene
you've gotta do somethin' they ain't never seen
so thinkin' up a gimmick one day
we decided to be the only band that wouldn't play a note
under any circumstances
silence
music's original alternative
root's grunge
well we spread the word through the underground
that we were the hottest new thing in town
the record guy came out to see us one day
and just like always we didn't play
it knocked him out
he said he loved our work
he said he loved our work but he wasn't sure if he could sell a record
with nothing on it
i said tell 'em we're from seattle
he advanced us two and a half million dollars
(chorus)
well they made us do a video but that wasn't tough
'cuz we just filmed ourselves smashin' stuff
it was kinda weird 'cuz there was no music
but mtv said they'd love to use it
the kids went wild, the kids went nuts
rolling stone gave us a five-star review said we played with guts
we're scorin' chicks, takin' drugs
then we got asked to play mtv unplugged
you should have seen it
we went right out there and refused to do acoustical versions of the
electrical songs we had refused to record in the first place
then we smashed our shit
well we blew 'em away at the grammy's show
by refusing to play and refusing to go
and then just when we thought fame would last forever
along come this band that wasn't even together
now that's alternative
now that's alternative to alternative
i feel stupid
and contagious
well our band got dropped and that ain't funny
'cuz we're all hooked on drugs but we're outta money
so the other day i called up the band
i said boys i've taken all i can
shave off your goatees
pack the van
we're goin' back to athens
I didn't mean anyone had to be a success...But to sit on a couch and say. I am a great (insert whatever here) does not make it so. A true artist, writer..(what ever) can not stop creating regardless of success. Look at VanGogh, through pain, mental illness, rejection.. he was a painter, an artist. I can sit here and say I am a great artist..but I need a paint brush. There is a difference.. Deeds do have merit. I have great respect for anyone that tries, even if they fail. The point is they tried! Word, thoughts, intentions with out deeds are hollow.
Suppose George is a painter. It's presumably because (As Prob123 points out) he paints. That is, it's because of something he does.
Suppose George is also a member of the species, homo sapiens. It seems rather odd to say that this is something that he did.
This suggests that some things that George is are due to what he does, but other things are not.
Suppose George is also a member of the species, homo sapiens. It seems rather odd to say that this is something that he did.
This suggests that some things that George is are due to what he does, but other things are not.
Alas, when irresistible Irinas meet immovable Psimagi it seems a great deal of friction can be generated to no good purpose. Next time, please do tell me to just shut up (I hope there isn't a next time
)And I apologise if some of my remarks were rather blunter than I would have wished them. I was in a state of some vexation myself at the sheer mutual intransigence of the whole situation, but it would have been better to hold my tongue if I could not have phrased them more diplomatically.
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