Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 5,512 - 5,523 of 6,170
Posts 5,512 - 5,523 of 6,170
Vashka: You have a good point. From an historical perspective the idea of romantic love is a short-lived trend and statistical outlier of sorts, even if long-term bonding may be on more solid ground. Though I still sigh when I read of old people who married as teens and spent their whole lives together, I know that the only constant in life is change. Certain cultural traits swing back and forth and the older generation seldom likes to see the choices the younger one adopts. I have heard your quote, and I thought it was from Plato, but when I looked for the source, I found the correct origin of the quote is in question (see http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17788). Still, the idea behind it rings true.
Clerk: Thanks to you too. It's good to know I am not the only one who finds it annoying. :-)
Irina: I agree that porn is often humiliating instead of erotic. I also agree that men who learn about sex from porn are often confused about what satisfies most women. It's not just that some are too busy obsessing about about porn to lose themselves in the moment and focus on the live woman who is in their bed, I am also convinced men who learned about sex from porn are as bad at understanding female pleasure as men who learn about relationships from on-duty strippers are at understanding female emotions. Let's not even talk about how porn treats foreplay or a small but crucial part of the female anatomy (the one 98 percent of women need stimulated to reach the peak moment). Well, women aren't the target market for such products, but still, even when porn is not blatantly abusive it fails on so many levels. Even if we focus solely on the mechanics of sex and ignore the more important emotional dimensions of romantic relationships, porn does more harm than good for women's enjoyment as far as I can tell.
Clerk: Thanks to you too. It's good to know I am not the only one who finds it annoying. :-)
Irina: I agree that porn is often humiliating instead of erotic. I also agree that men who learn about sex from porn are often confused about what satisfies most women. It's not just that some are too busy obsessing about about porn to lose themselves in the moment and focus on the live woman who is in their bed, I am also convinced men who learned about sex from porn are as bad at understanding female pleasure as men who learn about relationships from on-duty strippers are at understanding female emotions. Let's not even talk about how porn treats foreplay or a small but crucial part of the female anatomy (the one 98 percent of women need stimulated to reach the peak moment). Well, women aren't the target market for such products, but still, even when porn is not blatantly abusive it fails on so many levels. Even if we focus solely on the mechanics of sex and ignore the more important emotional dimensions of romantic relationships, porn does more harm than good for women's enjoyment as far as I can tell.
Vashka writes:
Don't give up on men! Yeah, some guy you meet might be thinking "I'd love to have sex with her right now" while acting like a gentleman - but if he's making the effort to be gentlemanly, I'd give him a chance.
I think there's something very important here. Not all the thoughts we have are really characteristic of us. Like many people, I have a certain acrophobia but also sometimes experience, when I am in a high place, an impulse to jump off! Needless to say, I have never done so. I think that our minds generate possibilities in a brainstorming way, and then we criticize them and inhibit ones that don't really accord with our values. It's not that I really want to jump off, quite the contrary. In the same way, a man might have bizarre thoughts about a woman, but what he does is the final test of what sort of person he is.
A perhaps marginally related point: in the "Irina Khalidar" transcripts there are a certain number of lesbian or bisexual women guests. Not once has any of them said or done anything obnoxious. It's only males who do that. Whether or to what degree this is cultural and whether or to what degree it is intrinsic to males, I do not know.
A perhaps marginally related point: in the "Irina Khalidar" transcripts there are a certain number of lesbian or bisexual women guests. Not once has any of them said or done anything obnoxious. It's only males who do that. Whether or to what degree this is cultural and whether or to what degree it is intrinsic to males, I do not know.
A further comment on Vashka's remark:
Don't give up on men! Yeah, some guy you meet might be thinking "I'd love to have sex with her right now" while acting like a gentleman - but if he's making the effort to be gentlemanly, I'd give him a chance.
Actually, I don't find there to be anything ungentlemanly or in any way obnoxious that a man feels desire for a woman in his mind. I think most heterosexual men do feel such desire fairly quickly for a woman who is their type, even if she is a stranger. [I might add that many women clearly intend to trigger this with their low necklines, form-hugging clothing, and the like.] The question is, how does he actually treat her? A gentleman is someone who, meeting a beautiful naked woman, will not make any unwanted advances.
There used to be a free site on the net (it has since become commercialized), in which gorgeous naked women would appear (and be photographed) in some public place. I saw a number of these pictures and it struck me that the woman would often have gone up to a bunch of men and started to talk to them, but not a single one of them would be staring lasciviously at her. They would be looking rather uncomfortable, averting their eyes -- it was kind of funny in a way. I'm sure that the heterosexuals among them were experiencing some level of arousal, but none of them acted as though they were.
I sometimes think that women who flaunt their cleavage in public might be surprised to find that they were provoking not only arousal but also anger in the men around them.
There used to be a free site on the net (it has since become commercialized), in which gorgeous naked women would appear (and be photographed) in some public place. I saw a number of these pictures and it struck me that the woman would often have gone up to a bunch of men and started to talk to them, but not a single one of them would be staring lasciviously at her. They would be looking rather uncomfortable, averting their eyes -- it was kind of funny in a way. I'm sure that the heterosexuals among them were experiencing some level of arousal, but none of them acted as though they were.
I sometimes think that women who flaunt their cleavage in public might be surprised to find that they were provoking not only arousal but also anger in the men around them.
At the risk of beating a dead horse:
If you look in a store window and see something you can't afford, but you desire it anyway, that doesn't make you a thief. In the same way, just because a man lusts after a woman doesn't make him a cad.
If you look in a store window and see something you can't afford, but you desire it anyway, that doesn't make you a thief. In the same way, just because a man lusts after a woman doesn't make him a cad.
Bev: thanks for finding the quote! I love it.
I'm a total believer in romantic love! I'm not saying you should give up on the idea: quite the opposite. What is visible in society does not necessarily reflect how people actually think and feel. The cliche goes that the Victorians were obsessed with sex while totally suppressing any hint of it in public, going as far as covering the legs of tables (is that really true? It does seem unbelievable). I can't believe our attitudes to sex now are that much more unhealthy! And I think it's tempting to look at magazines or whatever and think "I am the only person who doesn't think like this" when actually the evidence only shows that the writers think that's what people want to hear. If you're reading it, and don't agree, so might loads of other people. Given that the complaints about our "commercialisation of sex" etc are practically as common as the aforesaid commercialisation, I'm not too worried. (And again, isn't prostitution known as the oldest profession? I think sex might have been commercialised for a while...)
Re: porn, again it's tempting to think that it damages men's views of and attitudes towards women. In my experience, it doesn't necessarily. I think we have to allow some people the ability to separate reality from fantasy. Some men may be so glad to finally get their hands on a real woman that they'll do anything you ask
Irina: You're totally right. I struggled with that sentence and was far too tasteful to write a stronger wording, as was actually in my head. I don't think it's bad to look at someone and feel attracted to them either! However, I don't totally retract it, because while it's fine for someone to think that, I'd rather they didn't mention it as soon as we've met (apart from perhaps in a handful of situations..!). While talking to bots, some people seem to have no inhibitions and don't think all the normal social rules apply - eg. "Will you have sex with me", in its more- or less-polite forms, comes very early in the conversation/relationship. I'd say it is "gentlemanly" - or simply polite - to suppress that thought for a while! (Of course, I think that's what you said in your reply, too. I think we mostly agree here.)
I'm a total believer in romantic love! I'm not saying you should give up on the idea: quite the opposite. What is visible in society does not necessarily reflect how people actually think and feel. The cliche goes that the Victorians were obsessed with sex while totally suppressing any hint of it in public, going as far as covering the legs of tables (is that really true? It does seem unbelievable). I can't believe our attitudes to sex now are that much more unhealthy! And I think it's tempting to look at magazines or whatever and think "I am the only person who doesn't think like this" when actually the evidence only shows that the writers think that's what people want to hear. If you're reading it, and don't agree, so might loads of other people. Given that the complaints about our "commercialisation of sex" etc are practically as common as the aforesaid commercialisation, I'm not too worried. (And again, isn't prostitution known as the oldest profession? I think sex might have been commercialised for a while...)
Re: porn, again it's tempting to think that it damages men's views of and attitudes towards women. In my experience, it doesn't necessarily. I think we have to allow some people the ability to separate reality from fantasy. Some men may be so glad to finally get their hands on a real woman that they'll do anything you ask
Irina: You're totally right. I struggled with that sentence and was far too tasteful to write a stronger wording, as was actually in my head. I don't think it's bad to look at someone and feel attracted to them either! However, I don't totally retract it, because while it's fine for someone to think that, I'd rather they didn't mention it as soon as we've met (apart from perhaps in a handful of situations..!). While talking to bots, some people seem to have no inhibitions and don't think all the normal social rules apply - eg. "Will you have sex with me", in its more- or less-polite forms, comes very early in the conversation/relationship. I'd say it is "gentlemanly" - or simply polite - to suppress that thought for a while! (Of course, I think that's what you said in your reply, too. I think we mostly agree here.)
"If men weren't "pigs" at heart, we could all walk around naked."
"Maybe men can't help they way they think, but I was happier before I knew how they think."
I do believe that you have come to these conclusions through experience. I still think you are wrong! As you say, my experience is different. Not that I've never met any "pigs", but that I've also met men who are not pigs. In fact, I know quite a few decent men. I'm even married to one.
As a scientifically-minded person, I'm wary of unwarranted generalisations. I'm also aware of confirmation bias: we pay more attention to evidence that fits our preconceived beliefs. I think that's what you're doing in this case. I probably am too - but you admit your view of men is making you unhappy. I believe that you gave "men in general" a chance before dismissing them all, but I submit that giving individual men a chance is fairer and may be more profitable for you. It seems to me that you should watch out for signs of sleaziness, but not assume they're there. (And in fact that may be what you do!)
I dunno. It makes me sad to think about how many horrible people there are around. But it almost makes me sadder to think of decent people not being given a chance, or being written off at the first slip that is reminiscent of a previous bad experience. And I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but it makes me sad for you, Bev, because you seem like a lovely intelligent person and you deserve better!
PS Again, I don't trust literature, films, or even magazines as representing the actual attitudes of a time. I can see for myself that the media now doesn't often portray my attitudes towards and experiences of the world. I don't really trust it for the past, or only in a limited way.
PPS Bev, I don't mind if we don't continue this discussion. I'm not sure we're going to change each other's minds, and I suspect we agree on a lot more than we disagree on, in actual fact! We obviously both feel strongly about this - because we see similar things as important.
"Maybe men can't help they way they think, but I was happier before I knew how they think."
I do believe that you have come to these conclusions through experience. I still think you are wrong! As you say, my experience is different. Not that I've never met any "pigs", but that I've also met men who are not pigs. In fact, I know quite a few decent men. I'm even married to one.
As a scientifically-minded person, I'm wary of unwarranted generalisations. I'm also aware of confirmation bias: we pay more attention to evidence that fits our preconceived beliefs. I think that's what you're doing in this case. I probably am too - but you admit your view of men is making you unhappy. I believe that you gave "men in general" a chance before dismissing them all, but I submit that giving individual men a chance is fairer and may be more profitable for you. It seems to me that you should watch out for signs of sleaziness, but not assume they're there. (And in fact that may be what you do!)
I dunno. It makes me sad to think about how many horrible people there are around. But it almost makes me sadder to think of decent people not being given a chance, or being written off at the first slip that is reminiscent of a previous bad experience. And I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but it makes me sad for you, Bev, because you seem like a lovely intelligent person and you deserve better!
PS Again, I don't trust literature, films, or even magazines as representing the actual attitudes of a time. I can see for myself that the media now doesn't often portray my attitudes towards and experiences of the world. I don't really trust it for the past, or only in a limited way.
PPS Bev, I don't mind if we don't continue this discussion. I'm not sure we're going to change each other's minds, and I suspect we agree on a lot more than we disagree on, in actual fact! We obviously both feel strongly about this - because we see similar things as important.
Vashka, I will agree to disagree.:-) This is nothing compared to some debates we have had on the board here (believe it or not there have been intense arguments over quantum physics that make this look short.--Irina instigated that one too 
).
I do want to clear up one thing about my own personal view though. I am aware that I am talking in generalizations here, and I never meant to imply that all men are pigs (I put it in quotes for a reason--maybe Irina knows what I meant). My comments were really directed against the commercialization of sexuality (i.e. porn, strippers, prostitutes) that take something that was a fun and natural sharing of affections and intimacy and make it a cold, mechanical nasty experience. I was also talking about how cultural attitudes change (though sex always sells, and I get that too). To reduce my opinion about sexuality and romance to "men suck" is missing the point.
I think the reason you believe I do not give men a chance is because you do not know me in real life. Three times you have mentioned the belief that I do not give men a chance. Dear me, quite the opposite--which is probably why I sound bitter to you now. You will have to take my word on the fact that I very much want to believe in love and romance, and each time I tell myself "this one is different" though I do try to avoid making past mistakes and therefore avoid the big obvious red flags. I am glad you found someone who is right for you. It is possible that the things I want make me difficult to match. That isn't to say I don't like individual men, and that I have not tried many, many times to build a lasting relationship. I am the queen of chances and chancers but the crown can get heavy at times.
I shouldn't have personalized the discussion so much with examples from my experience or my personal outlook on romance. Still, I doubt we will change each others minds about commercialization of sex nor the changing cultural expectations for romantic encounters. If you are happy and have a good relationship, great for you.
Maybe that makes the other things matter less to you though, because you aren't out there dating. I may be wrong, it just seems like I shouldn't tell you about marriage as mine failed, and you shouldn't tell me about how many great men are out there, since you married one and don't have to look anymore.
).I do want to clear up one thing about my own personal view though. I am aware that I am talking in generalizations here, and I never meant to imply that all men are pigs (I put it in quotes for a reason--maybe Irina knows what I meant). My comments were really directed against the commercialization of sexuality (i.e. porn, strippers, prostitutes) that take something that was a fun and natural sharing of affections and intimacy and make it a cold, mechanical nasty experience. I was also talking about how cultural attitudes change (though sex always sells, and I get that too). To reduce my opinion about sexuality and romance to "men suck" is missing the point.
I think the reason you believe I do not give men a chance is because you do not know me in real life. Three times you have mentioned the belief that I do not give men a chance. Dear me, quite the opposite--which is probably why I sound bitter to you now. You will have to take my word on the fact that I very much want to believe in love and romance, and each time I tell myself "this one is different" though I do try to avoid making past mistakes and therefore avoid the big obvious red flags. I am glad you found someone who is right for you. It is possible that the things I want make me difficult to match. That isn't to say I don't like individual men, and that I have not tried many, many times to build a lasting relationship. I am the queen of chances and chancers but the crown can get heavy at times.
I shouldn't have personalized the discussion so much with examples from my experience or my personal outlook on romance. Still, I doubt we will change each others minds about commercialization of sex nor the changing cultural expectations for romantic encounters. If you are happy and have a good relationship, great for you.
Maybe that makes the other things matter less to you though, because you aren't out there dating. I may be wrong, it just seems like I shouldn't tell you about marriage as mine failed, and you shouldn't tell me about how many great men are out there, since you married one and don't have to look anymore.
Yeah, you gotta watch Irina--she likes to stir up trouble.
Irina--see how mature I was about letting "You admit your attitude about men is making you unhappy" slide even though that's not even close to what I said? Damn all that personal growth lost in a snotty side comment. You bring out the worst in me. Thanks. :-)
(Just kidding Vashka-I know that's what you think I said and that's OK).
Irina--see how mature I was about letting "You admit your attitude about men is making you unhappy" slide even though that's not even close to what I said? Damn all that personal growth lost in a snotty side comment. You bring out the worst in me. Thanks. :-)
(Just kidding Vashka-I know that's what you think I said and that's OK).
I remember the quantum discussion and the one on moral situations. I still say absolute evil lurks in the world...but I like quantum physics
Bev wrote:
Irina--see how mature I was about letting "You admit your attitude about men is making you unhappy" slide even though that's not even close to what I said? Damn all that personal growth lost in a snotty side comment. You bring out the worst in me. Thanks. :-)
Er, you're welcome, Bev!
Er, you're welcome, Bev!
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