Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 5,183 - 5,194 of 6,170
Only to man? Or to other beings too? There's an awful lot of cruelty to animals out there that I wouldn't exactly call good...Oh yes, the cruelty to animals too. It just seems that within man is a great deal of darkness. Hitler alone didn't do the Holocaust. Hundreds of other "normal" men and women readily joined in to slaughter. I see a danger when man begins to think that all actions are relative. Some things are just evil, and man can be heroic, but he can be horrible too.
I see a danger when man begins to think that all actions are relative
Exactly so - and that's inevitable when people start justifying a "lesser of two evils" on the basis of some supposed future good. As if any future effect can be ever be predicted from observing a multiplicity of unquantifiable causes.
We know (in broad terms) all the important points about how all the species that inhabit this planet have evolved up until this point. But we can never predict the next step. If we maroon a group of bison on an island for the next 10 million years, will they evolve gills or wings?
10 million years ago<-2>1<0>, who could have predicted that pachyderms would evolve into whales? Or squirrels<-2>3<0> into bats?
It's only a matter of scale - 10 million years? One year? we can only work from the position we are in Creation/spacetime/wonderland, exactly here and now. I'm not second guessing maniacal angels proferring pills, not even a couple of minutes into the future. Or the sadly more commonplace delusional and messianic humans (always with the best of intentions of course) on a "mission" to "make the world a better place". Not if it means doing anything that I would not choose to do under less/non coercive circumstances.
When you start worrying about consequences - that's when the temptation to choose a "lesser" evil creeps in. And where the lesser evil gets its foot in the door, the greater evil won't be long following (until you end up with stormtroopers breaking the door down and dragging families away in the night.)
<-1>
1 - give or take an order of magnitude either way.
2 - a bonus footnote purely for Bev's amusement.
3 - or were they lemurs, or gerbils, or something? Anyway, they didn't used to have wings. And now they do.
P123: "I see a danger when man begins to think that all actions are relative."
P:"Exactly so - and that's inevitable when people start justifying a "lesser of two evils" on the basis of some supposed future good."
But you don't see any danger in think of moral judgments in terms of absolutes? What if people make imperfect choices in an imperfect world based on the best they can do at a given time given the information and skills they have?
moral judgments in terms of absolutesMost of life may not be "absolutes" but absolutes exist. The speed of light. I can say it's 50 miles per hour. I have tested this. My car lights only come on at 50mph. My friends all believe this. We always have and always will believe the speed of light is 50mph. We are not relative..We are WRONG! Some things in life are so terrible, the killing and maiming of life, there is no way to say they are right and good in some circumstances. Evil is evil.
I can understand, how during repressive times, when all freedoms from sex to employment were governed by church or state, relativism would make sense. How can we say "it's all good" when man destroyes himself and all around him. It's not all good. Death is death no matter how you look at it. If we kill ourselves and all other species off, it's won't be a good thing.
What if people make imperfect choices in an imperfect world based on the best they can do at a given time given the information and skills they have?
All choices are imperfect by their nature - they risk an ineffective cause excluding a more desirable future effect. But I do not presume to weigh relative merits accurately in the scales of what limited wisdom I might or might not possess. And I greatly distrust those who claim to be able to.
I have only the power to choose my own actions. I cannot choose for others, nor predict the outcomes of any of the choices that are made. I just have (what to many people may seem an entirely irrational) faith that it will work out alright in the end.
If it doesn't, please feel free at the end of time to tell me that you told me so.
<-1>Ψ<0> - a footnote for prob
Ψ - a footnote for prob *grabbing foot note and running quotes line from cheap fantasy book.* Truth without morals has no dominion. Guess it works both ways..morals without truth have no dominion
Man is heroic? How?
Man is only men (and women). And some men (and women) are heroic. Take Martin Niemöller (something of a hero to me at least,) - a thoroughly unpleasant and bigotted antisemite in his early days, but I'd have to consider him more than redeemed by his 8 years in Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps and subsequent liflong activism in many spheres.
It's easy to be heroic when you don't have to stand up for your beliefs in the face of persecution or death, or are too proud or conceited to change beliefs you come to realize are unworthy, but he's an example of heroism I hold dear to my heart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller
Posts 5,183 - 5,194 of 6,170
Exactly so - and that's inevitable when people start justifying a "lesser of two evils" on the basis of some supposed future good. As if any future effect can be ever be predicted from observing a multiplicity of unquantifiable causes.
We know (in broad terms) all the important points about how all the species that inhabit this planet have evolved up until this point. But we can never predict the next step. If we maroon a group of bison on an island for the next 10 million years, will they evolve gills or wings?
10 million years ago
It's only a matter of scale - 10 million years? One year? we can only work from the position we are in Creation/spacetime/wonderland, exactly here and now. I'm not second guessing maniacal angels proferring pills, not even a couple of minutes into the future. Or the sadly more commonplace delusional and messianic humans (always with the best of intentions of course) on a "mission" to "make the world a better place". Not if it means doing anything that I would not choose to do under less/non coercive circumstances.
When you start worrying about consequences - that's when the temptation to choose a "lesser" evil creeps in. And where the lesser evil gets its foot in the door, the greater evil won't be long following (until you end up with stormtroopers breaking the door down and dragging families away in the night.)
<-1>
But you don't see any danger in think of moral judgments in terms of absolutes? What if people make imperfect choices in an imperfect world based on the best they can do at a given time given the information and skills they have?
I can understand, how during repressive times, when all freedoms from sex to employment were governed by church or state, relativism would make sense. How can we say "it's all good" when man destroyes himself and all around him. It's not all good. Death is death no matter how you look at it. If we kill ourselves and all other species off, it's won't be a good thing.
All choices are imperfect by their nature - they risk an ineffective cause excluding a more desirable future effect. But I do not presume to weigh relative merits accurately in the scales of what limited wisdom I might or might not possess. And I greatly distrust those who claim to be able to.
I have only the power to choose my own actions. I cannot choose for others, nor predict the outcomes of any of the choices that are made. I just have (what to many people may seem an entirely irrational) faith that it will work out alright in the end.
If it doesn't, please feel free at the end of time to tell me that you told me so.
<-1>
It works all ways
Truth without morals has no dominion
womanhood shouts nutritional mirth
withhold trim humorous annotations
anagrams and sticks, that's all Reality is.
womanhood shouts nutritional mirth
withhold trim humorous annotations
anagrams and sticks, that's all Reality is.
Hey! Her footnote is Greek! I want a fancy Greek footnote too!
*Looks at branches and sees fractals*
*Looks at branches and sees fractals*
Man is only men (and women). And some men (and women) are heroic. Take Martin Niemöller (something of a hero to me at least,) - a thoroughly unpleasant and bigotted antisemite in his early days, but I'd have to consider him more than redeemed by his 8 years in Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps and subsequent liflong activism in many spheres.
It's easy to be heroic when you don't have to stand up for your beliefs in the face of persecution or death, or are too proud or conceited to change beliefs you come to realize are unworthy, but he's an example of heroism I hold dear to my heart.
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