Seasons

I think a lot of all this has to do with the triumph of what in the late Roman Empire was called Epicureanism. Well, of course it differs in various ways, but central ideas are, hedonism (to obtain pleasure is the point of life), subjectivism (there's no right or wrong in the realm of values or even in the realm of truth - this is good (or true) 'for you', that is good (or true) 'for me', and there's nothing more to be said.)

subjectivism (there's no right or wrong in the realm of values or even in the realm of truth - this is good (or true) 'for you', that is good (or true) 'for me', and there's nothing more to be said.) I remember a long argument on that too! I still say torturing babies is always wrong. I do like the idea of hedonism, I think I will go get a donut and some more coffee.

It seems to me that pleasure is a perceptual experience of (apparent) goodness. It is a form of information, or, better, evidence. That something is pleasant is evidence that it is good. To see pleasure itself as good (especially as the sole good) is like confusing a word with the thing it denotes, or a picture with what it pictures, or an apparent perception of a unicorn with a unicorn.
IMHO, pleasure is neither good nor bad in itself. It might be said to be good when it serves to enhance our lives, and bad when it causes our lies to deteriorate.

Let's suppose that an immensely powerful being, let's say an angel, someone you can't defy, gives you the following choice:

1. The angel supplies 1 white pill and 20 black pills.
2. You can choose to take 1 white pill of 1 black pill; if you refuse to choose, the angel will force the black pill on you.
3. If you ingest the white pill, you will experience 100 years of the most intense possible physical and mental pleasure, with no displeasure of any kind; in particular, no guilt or shame. Then you will disappear for ever.
If you ingest the black pill, you will experience the most intense possible unpleasantness, physical and mental, with no pleasantness, for 100 years, and then permanently cease to exist.
5. If you choose the white pill, the angel gives the black pills to 20 kindergarten students, who then experience 100 years of maximum displeasure.

What would you do in this case? Why?

I take a white pill and a black pill. They ought to cancel each other out.

And then I eat the nasty angel.

Then wash the nasty angel down with a good beer!

Ok, since I can't shove the pills down the angel. I would have to take the black pills (wow that's 2000 years, much worse than my real life), because morally, I couldn't subject others to suffering that I can stop. It would be torturing children. That to me, is a universal evil.

Will any of the kids grow up to be Hittler?

NO doubt at least half of them! I say we just slap them a bit. Then once they grow up, we can call in George Bush.

*Smacks Spikebot on the back of his head with her staff*

It depends. I would also try to find a way to fight the Angel. After loosing that, I would say that before actually experiencing the suffering, I'd take the black pill, but if the Angel interrupted the torture after a year or so and gave me the choice again, I don't know if I would be strong enough to take the black pill the second time.

Also, it matters who the other people are, and what they mean to me. If I had to choose to save someone I loved as opposed to strangers, I could take it. If I had to give the pill to someone I loved or sacrifice 100 children, I might let the greater number be hurt. I know Xena (my soul mate) would choose the greater good, and I'd try to respect that, but at the moment I had the choice, I'm pretty sure I'd choose her over others, if she let me.

A wise bard of the Starship Enterprise once said, "Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many." I think that can be the case. It is a bad situation.

If any "evil" exists, it would be in the abuse of power in any such angel. To blame a human for making human choices in stead of altruistic one is to miss the point that it wasn't really a matter of free will. I admire Prob123 for her courage and her strength, but I would not condemn any who in his or her secret heart would choice their own self interests. It is all too human.

My heartfelt congratulations to prob123 for taking the ethical problem seriously and facing it instead of trying to wriggle out of it! Good for you!

(actually, I may not have been clear: You only have to take 1 black pill if you don't choose the white)