Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 5,010 - 5,021 of 6,170
Isn't it nice to know that the same 'civilization' that brought you weapons of mass destruction, Paris Hilton, and 'Dubya' is rapidly learning how to tinker with our brains?
Actually, this particular research is coming out of Israel. Given the history of that particular government, that's scary too (note: the Israeli governmet is not the same as the Jewish people or citizens of Israel anymore then the US government is the same as the average American).
I can see a new direction in evangelical religion: the convert accepts a 'baptism' of chemicals that will implant unbreakable faith
It is Brother Jerome's contention that heaven will be so ordered that all hard toil will be indistinguishably transubstantiated into the most delightful play, so by that stage it will of course be voluntary (though there will surely be many Microsoftian false prophets to deal with in the meantime!) Once you have an infinity of processing resources at your disposal, the overheads involved in reprogramming perceived reality to the optimal enjoyment of every individual consciousness (as well as in perfectly emulating and perfecting every possible conscious entity in accordance with Lovejoy's principle of plenitude,) are trivial.
But then, I did catch him reading Kolmogorov the other day, so perhaps this Panglossian tendency is only to be expected.
But how could we be fully human if we were not faced sometimes with dehumanizing processes? There could be no good if there were no evil, and a tree doesn't grow strong and healthy by being entirely shielded from buffeting winds and scorching sun and pounding rains. It grows spindly and weak, and soon withers.
I know this is the popular view, and maybe it's a very human one (at least at the current level of our spiritual evolution) but every time I hear it I wince. Just because that's the way things have always been, it doesn't mean it's the way things have to be. Sometimes adversity breads strength, and sometimes it kills off something sensitive and wonderful.
Lots of things that don't kill you leave you weaker (survival rah rahs aside). You may survive being abused as a child and grow up stronger, but chances are that barring some intervention you'll grow up emotionally and possibly physically crippled (if you grow up). You will not be stronger, just stunted and scared and scarred. Being raped may make you a survivor, but I don't recommend it as a character building experience. That's just crap we say to make us feel better about being hurt, abused and in a potentially hostile world.
I think it is worth considering the possibility that this is not the best of all possible human created society, and that we could improve under kinder conditions too. The case for this is also seen in nature. There are certain flowers that only blossom in protected environments. Some animals have thrived on islands without hardship and competition. It is a matter of seeing the beauty of a fragile flower as being as legitimate and valuable as the battered tree or thorny thistle. All are life.
As for human growth, we could have a different focus than domination of nature and other peoples. Of course, the problem is we would need to be able to do it as a race or it wouldn't work. However, as an individual I can grow well without added hardship. I may have to learn from the pain that comes my way, but not having that pain would still be better. Maslow's hierarchy of needs suggests that we cannot get to higher pursuits when consumed by survival needs such as finding food and shelter. I think if we ever had the chance to live in a better human society that valued compassion, intellect and artistic pursuits (and it were not immediately bombed out of existence by a military society), although we may still find some forms of suffering are a part of life, we would still be better off than living in dehumanizing, "life is cheap" societies. If it takes that kind of pressure to make diamonds out of coal, I'll stay coal if you please.
Prob123: That's true, but it's bad enough that life is faced with war, famine and plague. It just seems a bit much to tamper with mind and soul.
There is a theory that if there is a soul, it is tamper proof. That is to say, it exists on another plane/dimension/reality and while connected to our mind in some way, it is not a physical connection. That would mean that the soul could never be proven in studies in our reality and is not subject to the physics of our reality. It is, so to speak, supernatural, and unaffected by our physical bodies, or memories, or personality that develops in the body.
In this sense, the soul may be a type of parasite, and not what we think of as "us" at all. My consciousness is effected by my body, my memories and my current perceptions. That's the "me" i think of as myself--the me that thinks. The soul is just along for the ride.
If it's these parasites from another dimension afflicting our bodies and personalities with pain and suffering just so the parasite soul can learn, grow and evolve, then I for one would like to sell my soul and live a life of weak luxury and slacker peace. Where is a devil handing out wealth and youth when you want one? I'll take the ability to avoid most of life's suffering and live a life of easy over a parasite's evolution any day.
The mind and body (or mind/body) are/is interesting though. There is so little that makes us truly human. Have you seen articles of chimpanzee cultures and societies that are passed down from generation to generation? Here is the first one I found: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1170/is_2000_Sept-Oct/ai_64196607
Here is a animal, many would say a soulless beast. It has a personality. It uses tools. It has societies and cultures and traditions. Almost like us.
Is what makes us human a minor difference in DNA? Or is it our love of adversity and competition? Or is it that soul you like so much? If we took human memories in the form of chemical messages and injected them into a chimp's neural network, would it have soul?
Posts 5,010 - 5,021 of 6,170
And if WMD, PH and W weren't bad enough, once they get the hang of programming them, Microsoft will patent the neuron and make us all pay licensing fees to use their technology. And if you don't pay, they'll repossess your brain.
Has anyone seen the movie "Dark City"? In that movie aliens alter reality with a thought process called tuning, and experiment on human memories by injecting memories in chemical form directly into the frontal lobes. There is no need to reposes a brain if one controls the memories and functions. You can make people believe working and paying Microsoft are the most important things in life, or even work themselves to death. Talk about your viral marketing and chemical romance.
Great film 
Of course, if we've all been "upgraded" with the requisite Microsoft Mindware service pack, there's no way of knowing that we're not already there, but have just been programmed not to notice.
And there's no need to "make people believe working and paying Microsoft are the most important things in life", if you can make them think they're actually doing something else (or even the exact opposite.)
Of course, if we've all been "upgraded" with the requisite Microsoft Mindware service pack, there's no way of knowing that we're not already there, but have just been programmed not to notice.
And there's no need to "make people believe working and paying Microsoft are the most important things in life", if you can make them think they're actually doing something else (or even the exact opposite.)
I can see a new direction in evangelical religion: the convert accepts a 'baptism' of chemicals that will implant unbreakable faith... all voluntary, of course, although, to be sure, people do things in the heat of the moment, under peer group pressure, that they wouldn't have done after quiet, solitary reflection.
All we have to do is sell our chemical svengoli as a weight loss or anti aging product, and the minds of humanity are our playground.
Actually, this particular research is coming out of Israel. Given the history of that particular government, that's scary too (note: the Israeli governmet is not the same as the Jewish people or citizens of Israel anymore then the US government is the same as the average American).
It is Brother Jerome's contention that heaven will be so ordered that all hard toil will be indistinguishably transubstantiated into the most delightful play, so by that stage it will of course be voluntary (though there will surely be many Microsoftian false prophets to deal with in the meantime!) Once you have an infinity of processing resources at your disposal, the overheads involved in reprogramming perceived reality to the optimal enjoyment of every individual consciousness (as well as in perfectly emulating and perfecting every possible conscious entity in accordance with Lovejoy's principle of plenitude,) are trivial.
But then, I did catch him reading Kolmogorov the other day, so perhaps this Panglossian tendency is only to be expected.
It seems to me that the role of governments/science is to strip us bare of everything that makes us human. I guess the ultimate goal is to make us compliant. I can see a sad world where the AI has more heart and soul than man.
But how could we be fully human if we were not faced sometimes with dehumanising processes? There could be no good if there were no evil, and a tree doesn't grow strong and healthy by being entirely shielded from buffeting winds and scorching sun and pounding rains. It grows spindly and weak, and soon withers.
Even if this doesn't look much like the best of all possible worlds, I can't help thinking we will meet the challenge and be the stronger for it - it will all work out alright in the end.
As sister Julian of Norwich puts it "Sin is behovely, but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well."
Even if this doesn't look much like the best of all possible worlds, I can't help thinking we will meet the challenge and be the stronger for it - it will all work out alright in the end.
As sister Julian of Norwich puts it "Sin is behovely, but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well."
That's true, but it's bad enough that life is faced with war, famine and plague. It just seems a bit much to tamper with mind and soul.
I know this is the popular view, and maybe it's a very human one (at least at the current level of our spiritual evolution) but every time I hear it I wince. Just because that's the way things have always been, it doesn't mean it's the way things have to be. Sometimes adversity breads strength, and sometimes it kills off something sensitive and wonderful.
Lots of things that don't kill you leave you weaker (survival rah rahs aside). You may survive being abused as a child and grow up stronger, but chances are that barring some intervention you'll grow up emotionally and possibly physically crippled (if you grow up). You will not be stronger, just stunted and scared and scarred. Being raped may make you a survivor, but I don't recommend it as a character building experience. That's just crap we say to make us feel better about being hurt, abused and in a potentially hostile world.
I think it is worth considering the possibility that this is not the best of all possible human created society, and that we could improve under kinder conditions too. The case for this is also seen in nature. There are certain flowers that only blossom in protected environments. Some animals have thrived on islands without hardship and competition. It is a matter of seeing the beauty of a fragile flower as being as legitimate and valuable as the battered tree or thorny thistle. All are life.
As for human growth, we could have a different focus than domination of nature and other peoples. Of course, the problem is we would need to be able to do it as a race or it wouldn't work. However, as an individual I can grow well without added hardship. I may have to learn from the pain that comes my way, but not having that pain would still be better. Maslow's hierarchy of needs suggests that we cannot get to higher pursuits when consumed by survival needs such as finding food and shelter. I think if we ever had the chance to live in a better human society that valued compassion, intellect and artistic pursuits (and it were not immediately bombed out of existence by a military society), although we may still find some forms of suffering are a part of life, we would still be better off than living in dehumanizing, "life is cheap" societies. If it takes that kind of pressure to make diamonds out of coal, I'll stay coal if you please.
There is a theory that if there is a soul, it is tamper proof. That is to say, it exists on another plane/dimension/reality and while connected to our mind in some way, it is not a physical connection. That would mean that the soul could never be proven in studies in our reality and is not subject to the physics of our reality. It is, so to speak, supernatural, and unaffected by our physical bodies, or memories, or personality that develops in the body.
In this sense, the soul may be a type of parasite, and not what we think of as "us" at all. My consciousness is effected by my body, my memories and my current perceptions. That's the "me" i think of as myself--the me that thinks. The soul is just along for the ride.
If it's these parasites from another dimension afflicting our bodies and personalities with pain and suffering just so the parasite soul can learn, grow and evolve, then I for one would like to sell my soul and live a life of weak luxury and slacker peace. Where is a devil handing out wealth and youth when you want one? I'll take the ability to avoid most of life's suffering and live a life of easy over a parasite's evolution any day.
The mind and body (or mind/body) are/is interesting though. There is so little that makes us truly human. Have you seen articles of chimpanzee cultures and societies that are passed down from generation to generation? Here is the first one I found: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1170/is_2000_Sept-Oct/ai_64196607
Here is a animal, many would say a soulless beast. It has a personality. It uses tools. It has societies and cultures and traditions. Almost like us.
Is what makes us human a minor difference in DNA? Or is it our love of adversity and competition? Or is it that soul you like so much? If we took human memories in the form of chemical messages and injected them into a chimp's neural network, would it have soul?
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