Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 4,940 - 4,951 of 6,170
Posts 4,940 - 4,951 of 6,170
Heh. You don't even have to pay off teachers. There's pressure to (a) keep students of the same age group together and (b) move as many students as possible into the next group, so that the "numbers" look good. So people can get a high school diploma knowing absobloodylutely nothing.
More closely related to Forge stuff:
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=853
It's an article discussing efforts and reactions regarding robots that mimic humans.
It's an article discussing efforts and reactions regarding robots that mimic humans.
The truth is that people of different classes put emphasis on different things. It's mainly the middle class that works its ass off with the intention of all making all the old cliches of bettering oneself and getting ahead and setting up for life etc.
Although the upper classes (where the majority of our world leaders emerge from) will often put in the effort to get top marks, and will have a support network (teachers/tutors/facilities) that gives them the opportunities to achieve this, there is more of an emphasis of creating/maintaining the social network, the family legacy and the school's honour etc, etc. That is actually more likely to set them up in life than getting a string of As.
On the ambition and drive thing. I've taught kids with documented intellectual disabilities and other learning difficulties whose work craps all over that of their "normal" classmates. The difference is that they will put in the time and effort on work instead of doing it at the last minute and will pay attention to mistakes made in the past. In most cases it seems to be their drive to be "normal" that sees them getting ahead of their classmates i.e. they realise they have to work a bit harder to succeed and actually do.
Although the upper classes (where the majority of our world leaders emerge from) will often put in the effort to get top marks, and will have a support network (teachers/tutors/facilities) that gives them the opportunities to achieve this, there is more of an emphasis of creating/maintaining the social network, the family legacy and the school's honour etc, etc. That is actually more likely to set them up in life than getting a string of As.
On the ambition and drive thing. I've taught kids with documented intellectual disabilities and other learning difficulties whose work craps all over that of their "normal" classmates. The difference is that they will put in the time and effort on work instead of doing it at the last minute and will pay attention to mistakes made in the past. In most cases it seems to be their drive to be "normal" that sees them getting ahead of their classmates i.e. they realise they have to work a bit harder to succeed and actually do.
I have been known to teach gifted students, and I have seen the obverse of what Corwin describes - a large percentage of them have a negative work ethic and hence learn relatively little.
Well... I'd be inclined to say so, except that there is always the hope that the right teacher can motivate the student. Also, public school can be so horrific for gifted kids that just getting them out of there might be worthwhile. A substantial number of the gifted kids that I have known have severe psychological problems, many of which are (hard to prove this, but I am convinced) due in part to being trapped in public school. Actually, public school is pretty bad for ordinary kids, too!
Irina: Part of the problem there might be that these students were gifted enough to sail through standard classes with little or no effort. They were bored to tears: never challenged at all. They didn't need to develop a work ethic. Some of them may be self-motivated enough to seek out more challenging material, but most probably aren't.
The one useful application for IQ-tests is to determine whether a student should be left in regular classes, put in special-ed classes, or put in more challenging honor's classes. Even there, the IQ tests won't always be 100% accurate. But at least it will catch most of the outliers.
The one useful application for IQ-tests is to determine whether a student should be left in regular classes, put in special-ed classes, or put in more challenging honor's classes. Even there, the IQ tests won't always be 100% accurate. But at least it will catch most of the outliers.
I think you are right, Ulrike - they find things so easy that they never learn determination. They also never thearn the skills for attacking problems that don't collapse right away.
It seems to me that intelligence has something to do with Logic and reasoning. A more intelligent person can draw more (correct) conclusions.
I don't think I mentioned gifted students, but I would agree with you Irina. While I wouldn't call myself gifted, I was more than smart enough to cruise through without too much effort, do most things at the last minute and still get high marks. That was fine until the last two years of high school where I got caught out (particularly in Maths) when the learning curve got very steep. A lot of kids that I would have considered myself more capable than outdid me. I also find that the self-discipline to get stuck in and get things done often eludes me, which I feel came out of those early high school habits.
Picking up on other stuff, the school I teach in has a "high achievers" class at each year level. It's a relative term since the majority of our kids are below the state average or just on it. Those classes can be a lot of fun to teach because they are the ones who do "get it" and generally school isn't such a trial for them that they act out.
The problem comes when you consider that our school is small, with only three classes of kids at each year level this year. You take the 25 nicest and more motivated ones and put them in the one class, and you're left with some truly diabolical combinations of kids in the remaining two classes. And the worst is that with as many as ten discipline problem kids in each of those classes, you can't separate kids who really shouldn't be together because in order to do that, you shift them into another class where they team up with other kids they shouldn't be together with. I'm not saying that it is impossible for learning to happen under those circumstances, but there are days and lessons when what does go on is not learning. [/end rant]
Anyway, I agree with you Irina about the logic/reasoning thing. I've always seen intelligence as not necessarily always coming to conclusions, but the ability to make connections. Like the connections between a thing and its category, or how something fits into a particular place. The higher the intelligence, the broader and more abstract the range of connections (although admittedly that last is coming closer to speaking of knowledge, which is an entirely different kettle of fish).
Picking up on other stuff, the school I teach in has a "high achievers" class at each year level. It's a relative term since the majority of our kids are below the state average or just on it. Those classes can be a lot of fun to teach because they are the ones who do "get it" and generally school isn't such a trial for them that they act out.
The problem comes when you consider that our school is small, with only three classes of kids at each year level this year. You take the 25 nicest and more motivated ones and put them in the one class, and you're left with some truly diabolical combinations of kids in the remaining two classes. And the worst is that with as many as ten discipline problem kids in each of those classes, you can't separate kids who really shouldn't be together because in order to do that, you shift them into another class where they team up with other kids they shouldn't be together with. I'm not saying that it is impossible for learning to happen under those circumstances, but there are days and lessons when what does go on is not learning. [/end rant]
Anyway, I agree with you Irina about the logic/reasoning thing. I've always seen intelligence as not necessarily always coming to conclusions, but the ability to make connections. Like the connections between a thing and its category, or how something fits into a particular place. The higher the intelligence, the broader and more abstract the range of connections (although admittedly that last is coming closer to speaking of knowledge, which is an entirely different kettle of fish).
[Digression: the server fund drive appears to have stalled. Perhaps the time has come to call on Glindar?]
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