Seasons
This is a forum or general chit-chat, small talk, a "hey, how ya doing?" and such. Or hell, get crazy deep on something. Whatever you like.
Posts 4,306 - 4,317 of 6,170
take up Jainism and only eat vegetable matter that falls on its own. We as humans have a brain that can hopefully notice the difference between a Big Mac and a child. Oh, here's a classic for you Prob123: Suppose No, I would not kill Hitler the child. He had not yet committed any crime. For the same reasons I am against rounding up people with certain DNA patterns. After his rise to power..YEP, give me a gun.
NOW...You can't tell me that either of you think a childs life is the same as a Big Mac. Or that because Hitler was a child, it's ok, neutral to kill a baby!?! Some things are just evil.
Suppose you can't, but an evil sociopath follows you back in time I think the fact that he is "an evil sociopath" precludes him from being the good guy?
Suppose you can't, but an evil sociopath follows you back in time I think the fact that he is "an evil sociopath" precludes him from being the good guy?
Maybe. But he just saved the lives of 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians and a few million assorted Slavs, Poles, gypsies, gays and handicapped people. Not to mention the actual combatants in the war. Accidentally of course, but the result is the same.
Not that I'm advocating even killing Hitler to prevent it. But a part of me that I don't like very much wouldn't be at all sorry to see little baby Shickelgruber die in his cradle.
I can't accept that it's ever the answer to meet violence with violence, but I can't rationalise why I feel that. And I don't presume to condemn anyone who disagrees with me.
Vengeance is a dangerous thing, and "there but for the grace of God go I" etc. I'm all too aware of how easy it would be to make the whole world blind and toothless by insisting on exacting an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I could be goaded into joining a lynch mob just as easily as the next man if I didn't make a regular conscious effort to step back from the brink. More easily perhaps - injustice really gets me mad.
The solution can only be compassion, not vengeance - even for evildoers. Even if it doesn't come naturally (and it doesn't,) I think we should try. That's not to accept or diminish the severity of the deeds, nor to allow them free rein. They should be safely and humanely confined where they can no longer abuse people, because people deserve to be protected. But they also deserve the opportunity to repent, even if it seems beyond hope to us here and now. Tyrants and sadists and abusers have ruined their selves as well as their victims, and we should try to find some compassion for that. What made them go so very wrong, when we didn't? I don't know. But I try to pity them for having so comprehensively corrupted their own humanity because I know it could all too easily have been me if things had been different. We are just variations on a theme - call it God, or stick some psychobabble label on it. And it is pitiable that some of those themes go bad.
Posts 4,306 - 4,317 of 6,170
You're confusing the action with its context. Killing vs. Killing a Baby/Killing an Innocent. Sex vs. Unwilling Sex. If you want to argue that killing is always bad, then you'll have to take up Jainism and only eat vegetable matter that falls on its own. Most of the food we eat was once a living organism and must be killed to be eaten.
The actions are "killing" and "sex". The context is what determines the label.
As for "evil with good consequences," WWII pulled the United States out of the Depression. The Axis (both German and Japanese) carried out rather heinous acts, and when the US joined in to stop them, it revitalized the US economy and ended the Great Depression.
The actions are "killing" and "sex". The context is what determines the label.
As for "evil with good consequences," WWII pulled the United States out of the Depression. The Axis (both German and Japanese) carried out rather heinous acts, and when the US joined in to stop them, it revitalized the US economy and ended the Great Depression.
Oh, here's a classic for you Prob123: Suppose you had a time machine and could go back and kill Hitler. Because of various calculations and scientific principle we have not yet discovered, the only way to kill HItler and stop WWII and the death camps is to murder him as an innocent baby. Can you do it?
Suppose you can't, but an evil sociopath follows you back in times, sees you spare the baby, and kills it to torment you (thinking you had gone back in time to save the child). Which one of you is good and which is evil?
Suppose you can't, but an evil sociopath follows you back in times, sees you spare the baby, and kills it to torment you (thinking you had gone back in time to save the child). Which one of you is good and which is evil?
Suppose you could only go back to that time, when he was a baby? Suppose that was the only way you or anyone else could stop the holocaust? If it's good to save one innocent person, why isn't it good to save millions of them?
I don't think you're being fair to Ulrike. She is not climing or manifesting an inability to tell the difference. On the contrary, her whole point hinges on there being a significant difference tof that kind. If X says "killing is wrong" with no further qualifications, then X is not making any such distinctions.
I don't think you're being fair to Ulrike. She is not climing or manifesting an inability to tell the difference. On the contrary, her whole point hinges on there being a significant difference tof that kind. If X says "killing is wrong" with no further qualifications, then X is not making any such distinctions.
As for WW2 ending the depression remember that there are many other factors, it helps a lot to remember that "monetary policy" "the Fed" and that maybe "policy" is a misnomer, there. FDR devalued the dollar through the last months of 1933, which might have provided a shock upward price to some commodities (good), and with the revaluing of the dollar at $35/oz of gold in January 1934, appears to have put the dollar at an attractive price point for international investors. the New Deal was intended as a remedy, by empowering labor unions and farmers and by raising taxes on corporate profits. Regulation of the economy was a favorite remedy. Some New Deal regulation (the NRA and AAA) was declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court.[5] However the Securities and Exchange However the Securities and Exchange Commission, Federal Reserve, Social Security and other laws and regulations won widespread support which continues to this day.
As for WW2 ending the depression remember that there are many other factors, it helps a lot to remember that "monetary policy" "the Fed" and that maybe "policy" is a misnomer, there. FDR devalued the dollar through the last months of 1933, which might have provided a shock upward price to some commodities (good), and with the revaluing of the dollar at $35/oz of gold in January 1934, appears to have put the dollar at an attractive price point for international investors. the New Deal was intended as a remedy, by empowering labor unions and farmers and by raising taxes on corporate profits. Regulation of the economy was a favorite remedy. Some New Deal regulation (the NRA and AAA) was declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court.[5] However the Securities and Exchange However the Securities and Exchange Commission, Federal Reserve, Social Security and other laws and regulations won widespread support which continues to this day.
I appreciate your commitment to recognizing evil as such and being tough on it. And you might be right about the baby Hitler case.
How about this: You have a choice of buying a can of soft drink or drinking water from a fountain. The soft drink has little nutritive value. If you drink the water from the fountain, you can give the money you would otherwise have spent on the soft drink to Oxfam or some other reputable relief agency, thus saving at least one human life. Is there any justification whatever for buying the soft drink?
How about this: You have a choice of buying a can of soft drink or drinking water from a fountain. The soft drink has little nutritive value. If you drink the water from the fountain, you can give the money you would otherwise have spent on the soft drink to Oxfam or some other reputable relief agency, thus saving at least one human life. Is there any justification whatever for buying the soft drink?
That gets into the neutral area. The money could be given to the poor, but if I don't buy the pop, I put people out of work. and Pepsi Co collapses.
Maybe. But he just saved the lives of 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians and a few million assorted Slavs, Poles, gypsies, gays and handicapped people. Not to mention the actual combatants in the war. Accidentally of course, but the result is the same.
Not that I'm advocating even killing Hitler to prevent it. But a part of me that I don't like very much wouldn't be at all sorry to see little baby Shickelgruber die in his cradle.
I can't accept that it's ever the answer to meet violence with violence, but I can't rationalise why I feel that. And I don't presume to condemn anyone who disagrees with me.
Vengeance is a dangerous thing, and "there but for the grace of God go I" etc. I'm all too aware of how easy it would be to make the whole world blind and toothless by insisting on exacting an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I could be goaded into joining a lynch mob just as easily as the next man if I didn't make a regular conscious effort to step back from the brink. More easily perhaps - injustice really gets me mad.
The solution can only be compassion, not vengeance - even for evildoers. Even if it doesn't come naturally (and it doesn't,) I think we should try. That's not to accept or diminish the severity of the deeds, nor to allow them free rein. They should be safely and humanely confined where they can no longer abuse people, because people deserve to be protected. But they also deserve the opportunity to repent, even if it seems beyond hope to us here and now. Tyrants and sadists and abusers have ruined their selves as well as their victims, and we should try to find some compassion for that. What made them go so very wrong, when we didn't? I don't know. But I try to pity them for having so comprehensively corrupted their own humanity because I know it could all too easily have been me if things had been different. We are just variations on a theme - call it God, or stick some psychobabble label on it. And it is pitiable that some of those themes go bad.
The fact is we can't go back in time, and it doesnt look like man will be able to. So killing Hitler at any age is just mind play. Being able to recognise an evil leader in our life time might save the lives of millions.
It is a sad fact that many lives were lost because no one would help 'at the time', because of their own anti Semitic feelings. A boat load of children that found no refuge, and was sent back. Gypsies being turned back over to the death squads. Will we do the same?
Never mind stopping Hitler, it's too late. How close do we watch our own world, at our own time? Look at the number of children that die of the effects of poverty, one every three seconds.
I do give to charities, then find out that food is stockpiled and unable to get delivered because of the political situation. The U.N releases reports, and seems unable to do much to fix any situation. Our leaders seem more worried about how their photo ops go than helping the world....I do think EVIL is real and alive.
It is a sad fact that many lives were lost because no one would help 'at the time', because of their own anti Semitic feelings. A boat load of children that found no refuge, and was sent back. Gypsies being turned back over to the death squads. Will we do the same?
Never mind stopping Hitler, it's too late. How close do we watch our own world, at our own time? Look at the number of children that die of the effects of poverty, one every three seconds.
I do give to charities, then find out that food is stockpiled and unable to get delivered because of the political situation. The U.N releases reports, and seems unable to do much to fix any situation. Our leaders seem more worried about how their photo ops go than helping the world....I do think EVIL is real and alive.
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